MN.Militia
Elite
You can shoot a 40MM as long as you attach it to the underside of an AR pistol.I don't want to shoot one of those.not from a handgun anyway
10mm vs. .40: Was the FBI Wrong (or Right) About This?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
MN.Militia
Elite
I believe that's also why the military switched from .45ACP to 9mm, though I can't figure for the life of me why the Army went to 9mm in the 1980's when .45 is a slower and less 'snappy' round. This is particularly underscored by the fact that many specific military units (SOCOM, Marines, Air Force) stayed with the .45 all the way into the early 2000's, and some SOCOM units even continued as late as the late 2010's before finally leaving the 1911 (or 2011) as their preferred pistol. I suspect that they stayed with it on account of the .45ACP being so easily suppressed. I would not trust a subsonic 9mm to get the job done on account of its' current effectiveness being due to its' velocity. If I needed a suppressed round that will get the job done, make mine a 300BO! (Hell, I don't even own a 300BO AR pistol, and I can see how effective that cartridge & platform is! But I'm straying from the main point of this thread, so forgive me. It's hard to have a caliber effectiveness debate without going wide with it, but IMHO 10MM will always be the king of traditional pistol calibers.)
Bassbob
Emissary
I admit for most of my life I have been a dyed in the wool .45 ACP snob. I once had a guy try to sell me a pretty nice 9mm for less than 1/4 of what it was worth. I laughed and told him to keep it.
I only recently ( in the last 3 years) started buying 9mm. All mine are German ( Walther and HK).
Never shot a 10mm and ( so far at least) I haven't had the urge to buy one. If I want something that hits harder than a .45 I have several .357 mags and a .44 mag that scratch the itch.
Tactically speaking ( for lack of a better term) I think my .45s and 9MMs do the job nicely.
HayesGreener
Ronin
The military jumped to the 9mm because it was adopted as the standard NATO pistol caliber. Being able to share ammo with your allies is important . A number of Special Warfare units opted to stay with .45 for their special purposes.
HansGruber
Ronin
No, it’s not true; another myth…because a full power 10mm load was never issued, or even considered. It was always the 180gr,950fps FBI loading (meant to mimic the ballistics of a 185gr .45acp).I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall that during my youthful LE days, the scuttlebutt was that the FBI switched to .40S&W because of the female agents' inability to handle 10MM. I don't recall if it was a matter of ergonomics or cartridge load, just that the wammens whined about it being "too much".
Maybe the reasons were distorted in the retelling of the why, Chinese-telephone-style.
According to what I’ve read, by people actually involved with the whole process, one agent with particularly small hands had issues with the 1076 & trigger reach, but was able to make a DAO 1086 work, and passed qualifications.
But the “too much recoil” lie mainly comes from chest thumping ignoramii.
HayesGreener
Ronin
The people at FBI marksmanship unit were gun guys, influenced by Jeff Cooper, who was a strong advocate of the 10mm. I fired a 1076 at SWAT Roundup when they first came out and found it to be an accurate pistol with manageable recoil, but big and heavy like an anvil. I recall thinking at the time that it would present a challenge for concealed carry by those of slight build. The FBI ordered more than 9000 of them.
I think the size of the 1076 and some manufacturing problems was more a determining factor for moving to the .40 than recoil. Smaller, 9mm framed guns could handle the .40 and get about the same performance.
I think the size of the 1076 and some manufacturing problems was more a determining factor for moving to the .40 than recoil. Smaller, 9mm framed guns could handle the .40 and get about the same performance.
Annihilator
Emissary
Don’t forget this round, .45winmag, had a LAR Grizzly Winmag, for a short time, came also with the .357 mag conversion kit, wasn’t mine, but a friend loaned it to me for a time, was thinking of getting it from him, but we couldn’t agree on a price
americangunfacts.com
45 Win Mag | Specs & Review - WeaponsMan
There’s always something new to learn in the world of firearms. Today, for instance, we’re going to go over the basics of a handgun cartridge we doubt that you’ve ever heard of let alone seen, the .45 Winchester Magnum, shortened to 45 Win Mag. In this piece, we’ll start with some of the history...
americangunfacts.com
HansGruber
Ronin
Yeah, the 1076’s were only around for a little while (‘92 or ‘93?) then the FBI went back to 9mm in P226’s and P228’s, before going to the G23 in ‘97 or so.
This is my 1076…haven’t shot it much, and it is heavy, but a damn nice shooter.
Onewolf426
Professional
PeteinAlaska
Operator
I heard that story too. Somehow it just dosn't seem to jive.I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall that during my youthful LE days, the scuttlebutt was that the FBI switched to .40S&W because of the female agents' inability to handle 10MM. I don't recall if it was a matter of ergonomics or cartridge load, just that the wammens whined about it being "too much".
Maybe the reasons were distorted in the retelling of the why, Chinese-telephone-style.
Over the years I’ve taken a number of women out to the range an introduced them to pistols.
Nearly to a woman their comments followed this general format…
”Well the .22 was fun, and I liked the 9mm, the .40 was ok, BUT, I think I REALLY want to get a .45 or even better that 10mm!! They were AWSOME!”
So unless the FBI was hiring very Tiny women, with very small hands, little strength, a very whiney attitude, and a pea under the mattress disposition … my guess is that this idea/story that “the 10mm is to much gun for our little women agents” is just a BS Urban Ledgend!
I have met Female FBI field agents on two occasions and was never given the impression that they were in any way shape or form a princess wallflower!
PeteinAlaska
Operator
A “40mm” what? Exactly….?You can shoot a 40MM as long as you attach it to the underside of an AR pistol.
Honorman
Elite
Bassbob, I would agree with you about 45’s and 9MM doing the job. In my agency we enjoyed very good success with the Federal HST 230 grain + P and the Federal HST 147 grain. In one year things went crazy in my jurisdiction. We had 66 Officer involved shootings. The majority of Officers at that time carried 45ACP exclusively Including myself. Of those shootings where bullet placement was good the suspect(s) died with the 45. As to the 9MM, the round also did well with three fatalities with good bullet placement. There were a number of shootings with both calibers where the suspect(s) lived but were not able to continue the fight when struck in what would be considered not preferred hit zones. The average number of shots fired by the Officers was 3 rounds with both calibers. In shootings where the suspect(s) were in vehicles the round count was higher. So why now do I carry the 10mm. A friend of mine introduced me to the cartridge and I just really liked it which led to the purchase of the Sig P320 X10. Simply, it is just fun to shoot the 10mm cartridge. Based on my experience with the above 45 and 9MM rounds during my career I would in no way dis-credit them because they have earned merit. The bottom line which everyone on this forum agrees is that good bullet placement is the key for positive results.
Bassbob
Emissary
Yep. @HansGruber is correct. Caliber really doesn't matter that much.
HayesGreener
Ronin
Attachments
Annihilator
Emissary
Onewolf426
Professional
Could it have been they were hiring tiny men, with very small hands, little strength, a very whiny attitude, pea under the mattress dispositions instead? Just my opinion........not judging anybody. But seriously, we all know the government's MO by now. Blame everyone and everything else except yourself, your agency. Come up with a scapegoat and run with it.
In retrospect, it was a good thing they focused on the caliber/ammunition, albeit the wrong way. Without their testing and trials, ammunition may never have advanced and improved as it has now. Dickens pretty much proved that 9mm in a present day scenario, is more than ample enough. At the distance he started at, and closing the distance, his 9mm did the job. Had the FBI had the same access to the ammo of today, it may have been a different outcome, and the 10mm and .40 may not have come about as they did. We can armchair quarterback this two ways to Sunday, but lack of planning, lack of sound tactics and being woefully naive is what led to that outcome. I think back then, the feds figured just their mere presence and mention of their name was supposed to strike fear into the bad guy, and cause that bad guy to just throw down their weapons and meekly surrender. Real world doesn't always work that way. Again, just my opinion. And, to a certain extent, the performance of the ammunition was also lacking. Yes, the Silvertip did what it was supposed to. But, it obviously wasn't enough to get the job done. Not a fault of the ammunition, but a fault of the understanding of bullet performance of the time. Not enough factors taken into consideration at that time. Now, most things have been taken care of as far as terminal ballistics, barrier penetration, over/under penetration, etc. Now, it comes down to shot placement and shots on target. Caliber may have an effect overall, but until they come up with the studies on the autopsies of different calibers, standardize it and publish it, then it is all just speculation. Or personal preference.
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PeteinAlaska
Operator
LOLOLOL!!
Indeed it could have been!! But, considering the time frame an who was running the Bureau in that time period an the then predilection to “somewhat” of a superior, sexist and arrogant attitude of the male power structure involved, it lends strongly to my supposition in my earlier comment! Not sure it’s about “blame” as much as twisted self serving logic! LOL!!
I can imagine that the few female agents at that time may have commented, among themselves, “nobody asked us, just CYA at its best. Short end of the stick again!”
I agree with you however that, all be it for perhaps the wrong reasons, that small arms munition design was accelerated by this event and the way that argument was supported!
It’s an unpleasant point but the shootout, the fallout that came from it, coupled with the various suggested “CYA excuses” given were “to whatever degree” a cataylist
Honorman
Elite
Onewolf426, I can provide you with some information as to the autopsy reports. My agency for handgun issued the Federal 45 230 grain + P HST and the Federal 9MM 147 grain HST. I attended several autopsies related to Officer involved shootings. Both these rounds did extensive damage to the body with excellent penetration and wound cavities. In many cases the only difference was the size of the wound cavities in which the 45 was greater due to the larger bullet. Both calibers recovered had great expansion and retained their weight with no bullet separation. The coroner added that the 45 round because of the bigger wound cavity/channel would speed up the physical aspects from trauma IE blood loss ETC. At one point after doing a number of autopsies, the coroner asked us what brand and type bullets we used. We gave him the information. Because he did all the OIS autopsies for the agencies within the county he noted the performance of those rounds. I retired in 2018 and from talking to my range staff partner who is still on the job these two rounds are still in use today. He also added that there have been a number of shootings involving the 9MM round since I left which all resulted in fatalities. When I retired, the 45 was still the prominent caliber used by Officer’s. However, Today that has been reversed to the 9MM being the preferred caliber. My partner told me that as long as the Officer’s continue to put the shots where they need to go and the bullets continue to perform as they are, the range staff has no reason to make any changes in ammo. I hope this helps I know there are many choices out there and other Police agencies can have different results from what ever ammo they issue. At least this info is factual based on my experiences and from the information provided by the coroner.
PeteinAlaska
Operator
I have started using the HST bullets in the 10mm for Bear deterrent for the reasons you state in your comment. I agree completely with your conclusions by experience that these munitions in the .45 and 9mm Are very effective.