Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “Do You Think the 1911 Is the Worst Gun for Cops?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/is-the-1911-the-worst-gun-for-cops/.
Do You Think the 1911 Is the Worst Gun for Cops?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
bobhicksscuba
Alpha
The 1911 is a time tested firearm. Whether it is good or bad for law enforcement is determined by your individual choice and what you are comfortable with and what you train with.
Sld1959
Ronin
I have heard it said that the 1911 is the easiest pistol, not handgun ie. Revolver., to learn to shoot, and the hardest to master. True statement? I have shot 1911 so long I am not great judge I suppose, but I do know shooting it well takes practice. But then again so does mastering ANY handgun.
If someone is going to carry a handgun to protect themselves and others they should put in the work to master it.
Therefore, using that as my criteria for police carry, no, its not the worst pistol they could carry, if they put in the work.
Now I will read the article to see what they conclude and why.
If someone is going to carry a handgun to protect themselves and others they should put in the work to master it.
Therefore, using that as my criteria for police carry, no, its not the worst pistol they could carry, if they put in the work.
Now I will read the article to see what they conclude and why.
Totally disagree with the logic on the allowance of a single action, cocked and locked 1911 for multiple reasons for duty carry. First, although I carried a .45 auto for over 36 years from military through a career in LE, it isn't the caliber. It is the system that a Dept or Agency adopts has more of a bearing, as multi-calibers are likely from any platform chosen. What extremely proficient shooters forget is the majority of an Agency aren't and will never be. Due to a lack of range time and rounds downrange is the primary reason. Has nothing to do with Agencies not providing the time and ammo, it is the interest.
The 1911 is a handgun that requires proficiency and special teams will send a thousand or more rounds downrange for muscle memory and accuracy, the rank and file will not. Adopting a system that allows familiarly and consistency with ammo and magazines is far more important than one or two officers carrying mags that can't be shared or weapons when picked up are foreign to the one picking it up. Having been with Agencies that had both policies of allowing your own selection over issued, I know which as a Command Staff I would want to face in a Court Room over a civil case.
Then there is image, as I have dealt with traffic officers deciding to carried cocked and locked 1911's, on the front area of their Sam Browns in the driver's face during a traffic stop. You think the knowledge base of the average officer is lacking with firearms, look at it from those paying the salary. There it is, inches from their face is a weapon with the hammer back and looking as if the officer has overlooked a safety situation. Like I said, I have carried multiple types of .45 cal from several manufacturers to include Springfield XP, which the SWAT Team preferred over a decade. I started with a ole Colt 1911, S&W 645, Sig, H&K to the FN Tactical and seriously eyeballing one of Springfield 1911's as next purchase. However, having some Officer that only shoots once a year during the annual re-qualification, needs a double action for first round, IMHO...
The 1911 is a handgun that requires proficiency and special teams will send a thousand or more rounds downrange for muscle memory and accuracy, the rank and file will not. Adopting a system that allows familiarly and consistency with ammo and magazines is far more important than one or two officers carrying mags that can't be shared or weapons when picked up are foreign to the one picking it up. Having been with Agencies that had both policies of allowing your own selection over issued, I know which as a Command Staff I would want to face in a Court Room over a civil case.
Then there is image, as I have dealt with traffic officers deciding to carried cocked and locked 1911's, on the front area of their Sam Browns in the driver's face during a traffic stop. You think the knowledge base of the average officer is lacking with firearms, look at it from those paying the salary. There it is, inches from their face is a weapon with the hammer back and looking as if the officer has overlooked a safety situation. Like I said, I have carried multiple types of .45 cal from several manufacturers to include Springfield XP, which the SWAT Team preferred over a decade. I started with a ole Colt 1911, S&W 645, Sig, H&K to the FN Tactical and seriously eyeballing one of Springfield 1911's as next purchase. However, having some Officer that only shoots once a year during the annual re-qualification, needs a double action for first round, IMHO...
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JohnnyLaw
Alpha
I know this will sound inflammatory, but we must address the elephant in the room...
Perhaps we disarm the majority of police until they undergo further education, training, and mental evaluations, as well as at least 2 semesters with constitutional scholars! That way rights and lives stop getting trampled on.
Perhaps we disarm the majority of police until they undergo further education, training, and mental evaluations, as well as at least 2 semesters with constitutional scholars! That way rights and lives stop getting trampled on.
Are there any Constitutional Scholars available within the education system left? I totally agree with your premise, especially since certain Acts having been passed in the past.
HansGruber
Ronin
Let’s just end the paramilitary “warrior mindset” training first…that might go a long way to ensure a mindfulness of rights.
On the subject, however…
I know cops that carry 1911’s (one recently started packin’ a Prodigy, in fact); they do tend to put on more range time than the usual officer, but…at the same time, I don’t think that the 1911 needs THAT much more training than the striker plastic fantastics that LE adores these days.
kenpomaniac1958
Master Class
There's no doubt in my mind that a 1911 takes more practice to learn to use properly than a Glock. As a Marine who joined after Vietnam, I liked 1911s, but I didn't like M-16 A1s(the newer ARs are ok..
). I've owned several 1911s over the years. I don't own one now because of neck surgery, so I carry something lighter but I miss carrying and shooting a 1911.
I also agree that most civilians when dealing with a Law Enforcement Officer, carrying a "cocked and locked" 1911 get nervous. And nervous/scared people sometimes do stupid or unsafe things. It's best to avoid making civilians nervous whenever possible.
I remember eating at a Whataburger in Grapevine(Texas) late at night(many moons ago) and seeing a Grapevine Police Officer carrying a 1911 and how my fellow patrons reacted to seeing the 1911 with the hammer back. It didn't bother me but then again I'm not a typical civilian...
I think a 1911 is a great firearm in the right hands and in the right environment. I have known several law enforcement officers over the years and had several that were my martial arts students. None of the officers I knew carried 1911s but some of them told me that their SWAT teams did.
I've dealt with violent people as an armed security guard, bodyguard, mental health associate, and never had to shoot anyone thank God. I was always able to talk someone down or physically restrain them or get them to leave the property without the situation escalating further.
I believe a firearm is just a tool and the verbal deescalation and physical skills are even more important than which firearm is on your hip(unless your serving warrants on violent felons, etc., etc. and yes I know anyone can get violent...that's why it's best to do your best to keep it from getting that way as much as possible, when possible.).
). I've owned several 1911s over the years. I don't own one now because of neck surgery, so I carry something lighter but I miss carrying and shooting a 1911.I also agree that most civilians when dealing with a Law Enforcement Officer, carrying a "cocked and locked" 1911 get nervous. And nervous/scared people sometimes do stupid or unsafe things. It's best to avoid making civilians nervous whenever possible.
I remember eating at a Whataburger in Grapevine(Texas) late at night(many moons ago) and seeing a Grapevine Police Officer carrying a 1911 and how my fellow patrons reacted to seeing the 1911 with the hammer back. It didn't bother me but then again I'm not a typical civilian...
I think a 1911 is a great firearm in the right hands and in the right environment. I have known several law enforcement officers over the years and had several that were my martial arts students. None of the officers I knew carried 1911s but some of them told me that their SWAT teams did.
I've dealt with violent people as an armed security guard, bodyguard, mental health associate, and never had to shoot anyone thank God. I was always able to talk someone down or physically restrain them or get them to leave the property without the situation escalating further.
I believe a firearm is just a tool and the verbal deescalation and physical skills are even more important than which firearm is on your hip(unless your serving warrants on violent felons, etc., etc. and yes I know anyone can get violent...that's why it's best to do your best to keep it from getting that way as much as possible, when possible.).
HansGruber
Ronin
I think the “nervous public seeing the hammer cocked” argument is a bit, well…silly, considering pretty much any decent Lvl3 Duty holster is going to have a hood over the hammer.There's no doubt in my mind that a 1911 takes more practice to learn to use properly than a Glock. As a Marine who joined after Vietnam, I liked 1911s, but I didn't like M-16 A1s(the newer ARs are ok..
I also agree that most civilians when dealing with a Law Enforcement Officer, carrying a "cocked and locked" 1911 get nervous. And nervous/scared people sometimes do stupid or unsafe things. It's best to avoid making civilians nervous whenever possible.
I remember eating at a Whataburger in Grapevine(Texas) late at night(many moons ago) and seeing a Grapevine Police Officer carrying a 1911 and how my fellow patrons reacted to seeing the 1911 with the hammer back. It didn't bother me but then again I'm not a typical civilian...
I think a 1911 is a great firearm in the right hands and in the right environment. I have known several law enforcement officers over the years and had several that were my martial arts students. None of the officers I knew carried 1911s but some of them told me that their SWAT teams did.
I've dealt with violent people as an armed security guard, bodyguard, mental health associate, and never had to shoot anyone thank God. I was always able to talk someone down or physically restrain them or get them to leave the property without the situation escalating further.
I believe a firearm is just a tool and the verbal deescalation and physical skills are even more important than which firearm is on your hip(unless your serving warrants on violent felons, etc., etc. and yes I know anyone can get violent...that's why it's best to do your best to keep it from getting that way as much as possible, when possible.).
And train to release the safety as part of the presentation/draw; it really isn’t that much more complicated than a plastic fantastic.
I have carried a 1911 for many years as a LEO. It is my preferred firearm, and I have trained extensively with 1911s as well as other platforms. I have been a firearms instructor for many years as well. Officers should be able to pick their firearm (within reason) in my opinion, but they should also have to show proficiency with their chosen firearm. The 1911 requires training and in my opinion a particular mind set. It requires a little more maintenance and understanding than many of the more popular police firearms of how it functions....anyone can master it given the desire. In one agency I worked for and was a firearms instructor, people who wanted to carry a 1911 had to go through an 8 hour training block that covered maintenance and functioning of the 1911 as well as qualify with it before carrying it on duty. This worked out well and we had a lot of enthusiasm for our program....YMMV.....
ex13F
Master Class
First of all I want to say that I was never in law enforcement. I worked for short periods as a guard at a nuke plant and as campus police at a really small private college. Both of these were a very long time ago. Second, I prefer the 1911 to all other pistols I have or had. Nearly 50 years shooting the 1911 (put a dozen mags through one yesterday) but I have recently acquired a Springfield XDm Elite OSP 4.5 in 10mm and I have to say that if I were going into harm's way I may have to leave old ugly at home and take the new kid. And this is a Springfield forum
Invisibleflash
Elite
From what I recall, in the late 1970's you could buy full auto MAC's at Rettings in Culver City for about $200 + the tax stamp...or a semi-auto MAC for $200. CA used to have one of America's largest gun dealers in Pasadena...Golden State Arms.
What a difference time makes...huh.
1911 and cops?
Use what you want.
I sold off all my 1911's and almost all my revolvers. Summer of Love 2020 cured me of fondling revolvers and 1911's. I did keep one 1911. An accurized Colt Custom Shop Commander in hard chrome finish...or some such thing.
Why did I keep it?
I forgot I had it...it got buried in clutter or it would have been sold with the other 1911's. It has no use to me, and I will sell when I get a chance. It is super accurate... but the low capacity kills it as well as the heavy weight. I won't be shooting paper in SHTF.
Why did I keep a dozen or so revolvers?
I kept as insurance if the dems outlaw semi-auto. Other than that, I don't like revolvers any longer.
...Summer of Love 2020 cured me.
Bemused Berserker
Elite
First, I'm not a 1911 Fan. Before I go further, this is largely due to my personal experience with a Spanish made Clone in the early 80s. The gun was the original Jam-O-Matic. Don't believe I ever shot more than 3 rounds before a misfeed. Couldn't wait to sell it to some other sucker. I will admit, that condemning the entire platform due to a poorly made clone isn't logical, but I never claimed to be with out fault.
The question comes down to personal choice, and how much time the officer is willing to spend on their own time and dime to master any but the simplest platform, and the 1911 is far from a simple platform.
For a number of years, the local Cop Shop leased time at our Municipal Range. As an RSO for the range I spent many times monitoring range safety, and grew to know quite a number of officers. About half of the officers, only showed up a day or two before the yearly quals. 25% were serious about maintaining and improving their skills, and many of those showed up to both leased days every month. About 10% I'd see every other month, and 10 to 15% needed disarmed and put behind a desk. In the early 90s, policy changed and a few of the officers began carrying 1911s, rather than the Dept. issued Glock 17/19s (7 or 8 officers by my recollection). Of those officers, only 3 demonstrated real competence and familiarity with the gun. The other 3 or 4, not so much. Poor maintenance was an issue as well as technique with those 3 or 4. The 1911 is a complicates design, and requires attention to its maintenance. It's not a clean it and shove it in your holster until needed design. Ignore its needs at your own peril.
In my opinion, the 1911 should only be used by officers, and civilians too, that really know how to maintain and use the weapon. If that can't be demonstrated to the Dept. Armor or Training Supervisor, then it should be a No.
The question comes down to personal choice, and how much time the officer is willing to spend on their own time and dime to master any but the simplest platform, and the 1911 is far from a simple platform.
For a number of years, the local Cop Shop leased time at our Municipal Range. As an RSO for the range I spent many times monitoring range safety, and grew to know quite a number of officers. About half of the officers, only showed up a day or two before the yearly quals. 25% were serious about maintaining and improving their skills, and many of those showed up to both leased days every month. About 10% I'd see every other month, and 10 to 15% needed disarmed and put behind a desk. In the early 90s, policy changed and a few of the officers began carrying 1911s, rather than the Dept. issued Glock 17/19s (7 or 8 officers by my recollection). Of those officers, only 3 demonstrated real competence and familiarity with the gun. The other 3 or 4, not so much. Poor maintenance was an issue as well as technique with those 3 or 4. The 1911 is a complicates design, and requires attention to its maintenance. It's not a clean it and shove it in your holster until needed design. Ignore its needs at your own peril.
In my opinion, the 1911 should only be used by officers, and civilians too, that really know how to maintain and use the weapon. If that can't be demonstrated to the Dept. Armor or Training Supervisor, then it should be a No.
Core
Operator
The 1911A1 is too good of a combat pistol for “Cops.” It’s cost for a well made all forged model is three to four times that of a Glock. The capacity of a 1911A1 is half that of a Glock. Sight swaps require some skill and a smith. Cops don’t get the training budget or time to gain proficiency in a 1911A1 versus the simplicity of a Glock.
The well made 1911A1 is superior in nearly every aspect to a Glock. However, it’s not superior to the Glock for Cops.
I own a Springfield 1911A1 custom and it’s unquestionably the most reliable, accurate, and proficient pistol I use and prefer to use for duty use bar none.
The 1911 needs a revamp to be a better gun for cops. I might suggest:
- Aluminum or Hybrid Frame in 1 3/4 stack for 9mm machine checkered front strap.
- Slide needs optic cut, external extractor, and quick change sights.
- Magpul Mags: cheap polymer reliable.
- Single Guiderod with captive dual springs.
- Ambi controls, thumb safety delete option.
- Trigger physical drop block safety.
- Nitro Carb Coating on Steel Components
The well made 1911A1 is superior in nearly every aspect to a Glock. However, it’s not superior to the Glock for Cops.
I own a Springfield 1911A1 custom and it’s unquestionably the most reliable, accurate, and proficient pistol I use and prefer to use for duty use bar none.
The 1911 needs a revamp to be a better gun for cops. I might suggest:
- Aluminum or Hybrid Frame in 1 3/4 stack for 9mm machine checkered front strap.
- Slide needs optic cut, external extractor, and quick change sights.
- Magpul Mags: cheap polymer reliable.
- Single Guiderod with captive dual springs.
- Ambi controls, thumb safety delete option.
- Trigger physical drop block safety.
- Nitro Carb Coating on Steel Components
Area52
Professional
Good video presentation, certainly clear and thorough explaining the benefits and the video something that should be shared to those that either haven’t or won’t consider the modern 1911.
I think the title of the video is misleading and should perhaps ask if it’s the Best Gun.
Many urban Departments (actually city managers) of the early ‘80’s before being allowed to transition to semi-autos and often on bad advice and ignorance chided against the 1911, if not for the action but the “meanness” of the cartridge. Even more so, Glock 9mm was even disavowed. There were even rules about cartridges being chambered. Maybe by now, in these modern times and modern handguns, things changed a bit.
Training and competence is foremost and there’s never one size fits all. With the bounty of available handguns, many Depts still have their list of select few that they permit to be carried by personnel.
But then there’s that above comment from a de-fund/disarm visionary:
”Perhaps we disarm the majority of police until they undergo further education, training, and mental evaluations, as well as at least 2 semesters with constitutional scholars!
For the Record : We had 8 years (and subsequently just completed 2 yrs of another 4) of a Constitional (law) Scholar. Remember that beer summit arbiter‘s old saying…”The police acted stupidly” ?
Police go through annual firearms certification. Implementation of various mandated legitimacy training, including enhanced accountability have been put forward under the (2014) 21st Century Policing Taskforce, via Executive Order.
I think the title of the video is misleading and should perhaps ask if it’s the Best Gun.
Many urban Departments (actually city managers) of the early ‘80’s before being allowed to transition to semi-autos and often on bad advice and ignorance chided against the 1911, if not for the action but the “meanness” of the cartridge. Even more so, Glock 9mm was even disavowed. There were even rules about cartridges being chambered. Maybe by now, in these modern times and modern handguns, things changed a bit.
Training and competence is foremost and there’s never one size fits all. With the bounty of available handguns, many Depts still have their list of select few that they permit to be carried by personnel.
But then there’s that above comment from a de-fund/disarm visionary:
”Perhaps we disarm the majority of police until they undergo further education, training, and mental evaluations, as well as at least 2 semesters with constitutional scholars!
For the Record : We had 8 years (and subsequently just completed 2 yrs of another 4) of a Constitional (law) Scholar. Remember that beer summit arbiter‘s old saying…”The police acted stupidly” ?
Police go through annual firearms certification. Implementation of various mandated legitimacy training, including enhanced accountability have been put forward under the (2014) 21st Century Policing Taskforce, via Executive Order.
Tonopah
Operator
I wonder why DA/SA pistols have fallen out of favor for Law Enforcement. I like the 1911 and carry them a lot, with my preferences leaning towards the Lightweight Commander or the Colt Defender.
But a DA/SA 9mm would seem to be a good choice from a standpoint of safety for both the officer and the public. 15+1 PCR is one example.
But a DA/SA 9mm would seem to be a good choice from a standpoint of safety for both the officer and the public. 15+1 PCR is one example.
Attachments
HayesGreener
Ronin
Nonsense
HayesGreener
Ronin
Have the authors run out of useful things to report on? Some of the most proficient officers on the planet use the 1911. It is, and always has been, about the training
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