Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “F-35: Controversial, Capable, or Both?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/f-35/.
F-35: Controversial, Capable, or Both?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Talyn
SAINT
The F-35s' design was driven by the USMC VSTOL requirement that forced the fuselage to be designed to accommodate the large-diameter lift fan behind the cockpit which influenced the aerodynamics and the size of the weapons bay, and is essentially "dead" weight since it's only used for vertical landings. But, the F-35B mostly uses short-rolling take-offs in order to carry more payload (ordnance & fuel) because of the extra lift provided by a horizontal take-off.
Therefore the F-35A & C are stuck with the aerodynamic deficiencies but use the space for a larger weapons bay and extra fuel.
And now for the rest of the Story....
www.defensenews.com
www.defensenews.com
aviationweek.com
And a series of issues that while some have been corrected, significant others will just have to be lived with...
www.defensenews.com
www.defensenews.com
P&W has always been supported by the USAF even-though their engines, going back to the F100 in the F-15 & F-16, have had major issues, have under-performed the GE engines. The F-15s & F16s with GE engines have always had better performance & reliability with the USAF splitting the F-16 buys between the two engines. But the F-15C, D & E's were stuck with P&W engines until overseas buyers of the F-15 paid for the F110 to be approved for use in the F-15 then preferred the F110 for their buys. That ended with the recent F-15EX buy then P&W whined that they were cut out of providing engines but didn't want to pay for tests for their F100 engine to be speced out for the F-15EX.
The same applies to the F-35 engine/thermal mgt issues in order to run Block 4 capabilities.
www.thedrive.com
www.thedrive.com
www.defensenews.com
www.defense-aerospace.com
The recent decision to go with the P&W upgrade of the existing F-35 is just a band-aid and continued subsidy of P&W, but with second thoughts.
www.defensenews.com
breakingdefense.com
aircosmosinternational.com
aviationweek.com
www.defensenews.com
www.airandspaceforces.com
With the F-135 Engine Core Upgrade barely meeting Block 4 needs with no extra margin, the F-135 ECU will still result in the engine running extra hard with subsequent rebuild/maintenance & performance issues.
jalopnik.com
So pay me now or pay me latter.
All this is like if the P-51s' original Allison engine was never replaced by the superior Merlin engine.
But GE is still pushing it's engine as the best option with growth margin.
www.flightglobal.com
aviationweek.com
aviationweek.com
aviationweek.com
And contrary to the OP article, considering the Chicoms hacked into the F-35 database years ago, and know it's strengths & weaknesses I don't think they're intimidated by the F-35 considering their own fighter developments.
Therefore the F-35A & C are stuck with the aerodynamic deficiencies but use the space for a larger weapons bay and extra fuel.
And now for the rest of the Story....
The Pentagon will have to live with limits on F-35’s supersonic flights
The Navy's and Marine Corps' versions of the F-35 will have restrictions on how long they can fly at supersonic speeds because of a risk of damage to the tail section.
www.defensenews.com
The inside story of two supersonic flights that changed how America operates the F-35
Day-to-day restrictions on supersonic flight won't stop pilots from pushing the F-35 to the limits in combat, an F-35 test pilot tells Defense News.
www.defensenews.com
F-35 Engine To Undergo Fleetwide Retrofit | Aviation Week Network
The F-35 Joint Program Office has issued a directive recommending that all Pratt & Whitney F135 engines be retrofitted within 90 days.
aviationweek.com
And a series of issues that while some have been corrected, significant others will just have to be lived with...
The Pentagon is battling the clock to fix serious, unreported F-35 problems
Defense News exclusively obtained documents detailing the F-35 jet's most serious deficiencies.
www.defensenews.com
Five F-35 issues have been downgraded, but they remain unsolved
Five of the 13 major technical issues first revealed by Defense News have been downgraded in the last year.
www.defensenews.com
P&W has always been supported by the USAF even-though their engines, going back to the F100 in the F-15 & F-16, have had major issues, have under-performed the GE engines. The F-15s & F16s with GE engines have always had better performance & reliability with the USAF splitting the F-16 buys between the two engines. But the F-15C, D & E's were stuck with P&W engines until overseas buyers of the F-15 paid for the F110 to be approved for use in the F-15 then preferred the F110 for their buys. That ended with the recent F-15EX buy then P&W whined that they were cut out of providing engines but didn't want to pay for tests for their F100 engine to be speced out for the F-15EX.
The same applies to the F-35 engine/thermal mgt issues in order to run Block 4 capabilities.
F-35 Engine Running Too Hot Due To 'Under-Speccing,' Upgrade Now Vital (Updated)
The F-35's engine is having to work harder to cool and power the aircraft's systems, leading to a logistical mess.
www.thedrive.com
New Electronic Warfare Suite Top Feature Of F-35 Block 4, Air Combat Boss Says
The F-35's Block 4 upgrade has many features, but Air Combat Command's commander says its electronic warfare abilities will be most critical.
www.thedrive.com
The Marine Corps’ ‘No. 1 priority’ for the F-35 involves a rough landing in hot environments
When it's a hot one, the F-35B might struggle to land safely. And that could be bad news for industry.
www.defensenews.com
Cost of Fixing F-35's Anemic Engine is $38 Billion
WASHINGTON --- The Pentagon’s F-35 fiasco continues. At $412 billion for 2,470 jets for the Air Force, Marines, and Navy (over 75% more than...
www.defense-aerospace.com
The recent decision to go with the P&W upgrade of the existing F-35 is just a band-aid and continued subsidy of P&W, but with second thoughts.
Pentagon rethinks F-35 engine program, will upgrade F135
The decision represents a major victory for Pratt & Whitney, the company that makes the F-35's current F135 engines that will be upgraded.
www.defensenews.com
Air Force will not develop new F-35 engine, keeping Pratt as sole contractor - Breaking Defense
Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall said that if the development cost was lower, the Air Force may have found the space in its budget to fund the engine for its jets alone, “but at the level of several billion dollars to do that [engineering and manufacturing development], we couldn't get there.”
No new engine for the F-35
After several hesitations, the Pentagon has decided that the three versions of the F-35 Lightning II will not incorporate a new engine. The Pratt & Whitney F135 had shown several weaknesses, forcing the U.S. Armed Forces to launch the AETP program to get a new engine. The cancellation of the...
aircosmosinternational.com
Kendall: F135 Upgrade The Only Option For All F-35 Variants | Aviation Week Network
Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall has decided not to proceed with replacing the F-35’s F135 powerplant with either of two alternatives.
aviationweek.com
US Air Force secretary wants ‘another shot’ at adaptive F-35 engine
The service's top civilian is having second thoughts about a recent choice for the Joint Strike Fighter.
www.defensenews.com
Strategy & Policy: New F-35 Engines: You Can’t Always Get What You Want | Air & Space Forces Magazine
Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall clearly regrets that the service isn’t pursuing an advanced technology engine for the F-35.
www.airandspaceforces.com
With the F-135 Engine Core Upgrade barely meeting Block 4 needs with no extra margin, the F-135 ECU will still result in the engine running extra hard with subsequent rebuild/maintenance & performance issues.
Axing The F-35's Alternative Engine Was An Incredibly Stupid Move
The DoD painted the F-35's alternative jet engine as a huge unneeded expense, one that was more about congressional pork than necessity or logic. Now with the fleet grounded due a mystery engine fire, we are reminded of how stupid it was to cancel the jet's other engine.
jalopnik.com
So pay me now or pay me latter.
All this is like if the P-51s' original Allison engine was never replaced by the superior Merlin engine.
But GE is still pushing it's engine as the best option with growth margin.
GE continues pushing F-35 engine replacement over upgrade
Calling its campaign to develop an adaptive-cycle engine for the fifth-generation stealth fighter a success, GE Aerospace is pushing for the US Air Force to adopt the technology, rather than opting to perform a core upgrade on the existing F-35 powerplant.
www.flightglobal.com
GE Asks Congress To Grant One-Year Reprieve for XA100 Program | Aviation Week Network
A rare tour of GE’s test chamber for adaptive engines highlights the reality of the new technologies as the company tries to save the program from cancellation.
aviationweek.com
Opinion: Why AETP Is The Best Solution For The F-35 | Aviation Week Network
The Adaptive Engine Transition Program is a competitive way to make sure the F-35 remains a competitive aircraft.
aviationweek.com
GE Launches New F-35 Adaptive Engine Phase | Aviation Week Network
GE Aerospace is beginning design work for a production standard version of the XA100 adaptive engine for the Lockheed Martin F-35.
aviationweek.com
And contrary to the OP article, considering the Chicoms hacked into the F-35 database years ago, and know it's strengths & weaknesses I don't think they're intimidated by the F-35 considering their own fighter developments.
BassCliff
Professional
Hi,
@Talyn, all those articles were very interesting and informative. (I'm going to bookmark defensenews.com and a couple others. Great stuff.) The F-35 certainly is a compromise and it's still having its systems, controls, surfaces, and quirks ironed out. Despite its issues, it seems to be the baddest plane in the air right now. I just wish a higher percentage were combat-ready. If the military expects this plane to be in service for 50 years or longer, they'd better get the repair, maintenance, and upgrade facilities going full speed.
Maybe I'll just take one for now.
Thank you for your indulgence,
BassCliff
@Talyn, all those articles were very interesting and informative. (I'm going to bookmark defensenews.com and a couple others. Great stuff.) The F-35 certainly is a compromise and it's still having its systems, controls, surfaces, and quirks ironed out. Despite its issues, it seems to be the baddest plane in the air right now. I just wish a higher percentage were combat-ready. If the military expects this plane to be in service for 50 years or longer, they'd better get the repair, maintenance, and upgrade facilities going full speed.
Maybe I'll just take one for now.
Thank you for your indulgence,
BassCliff
Talyn
SAINT
The F-35 is basically an attack plane vs. a true air-superiority fighter like the F-22.
Suppressing the F-22 production (and the F-14D+) & transferring funds to keep the F-35 program alive degraded the air-superiority portion of the mix putting the US (both USAF & USN) in the hole it is now regarding Chicom developments.
The USAF NGAD & USN F/A-XX program will address that deficiency but having them in operational numbers is a long way off.
Suppressing the F-22 production (and the F-14D+) & transferring funds to keep the F-35 program alive degraded the air-superiority portion of the mix putting the US (both USAF & USN) in the hole it is now regarding Chicom developments.
The USAF NGAD & USN F/A-XX program will address that deficiency but having them in operational numbers is a long way off.
Talyn
SAINT
More of the rest of the story....
news.usni.org
GAO Report on F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Cost Growth, Engine Modernization - USNI News
The following is the May 30, 2023, Government Accountability Office report, F-35 Joint Strike Fighter: More Actions Needed to Explain Cost Growth and Support Engine Modernization Decision. What GAO Found The F-35 program continues to experience schedule delays, cost growth, and late deliveries...
news.usni.org
HayesGreener
Ronin
Pilot training on the F35 is done near me at Eglin AFB. It is a NOISY aircraft, but I love hearing them. I understand it is very responsive to pilot input and a kick in the ass to fly. I was surprised to learn there are newby pilots starting off on the aircraft as well as veteran pilots transitioning into them from other aircraft.
Just about every new aircraft has developmental issues, the more complex the aircraft the more issues they will have, both machine and training. I hear a lot of noise about F35 problems but remember, much of its capability and systems are highly classified. The F16 seemed to be the most trouble-free new aircraft in my memory but it was inspired by John Boyd, one of the best fighter pilots in history. Keeping it simple has its benefits.
Just about every new aircraft has developmental issues, the more complex the aircraft the more issues they will have, both machine and training. I hear a lot of noise about F35 problems but remember, much of its capability and systems are highly classified. The F16 seemed to be the most trouble-free new aircraft in my memory but it was inspired by John Boyd, one of the best fighter pilots in history. Keeping it simple has its benefits.
Talyn
SAINT
And even more of the rest of the story....
www.thedrive.com
Note from the article: However, it seems that past woes with concurrency — the combined development and production process in which F-35s are manufactured before all features have been completely tested or vetted — are driving this approach.
Latest F-35s Will Go Directly Into Storage Until Upgrade Woes Ironed Out
The Pentagon plans to stop deliveries of its latest F-35s until developmental glitches with its Technology Refresh 3 hardware are ironed out.
www.thedrive.com
Note from the article: However, it seems that past woes with concurrency — the combined development and production process in which F-35s are manufactured before all features have been completely tested or vetted — are driving this approach.
Talyn
SAINT
The results of Concurrency....
www.defensenews.com
As it plans NGAD fighter, Pentagon must learn from past failures
The DoD must wrap up the NGAD’s development phase as quickly as possible to avoid the snowballing effect of updates and new features.
www.defensenews.com
MrMichaelActual
Master Class
The pain of delivering a jet and then doing the testing and upgrading real time after the fact... Figure it all out while you go.
KillerFord1977
SAINT
My airline stocks are down, so is my Boeing, took a loss on a silicon valley bank, Biden is killing us on the market, but still making money
Talyn
SAINT
Other than some really good sensors/intel gathering capability, and ability to penetrate contested airspace deeper (not as good as the F-22) the F-35 is a bit of a dog in the air with speed limitations (considering its' 43,000 lbst. engine that has issues itself)) to just barely supersonic to avoid structural damage to the tail area and the stealth coating.
It's really just a "extremely-expensive" faster attack jet than the Harrier for the USMC, and nowhere near being an air-superiority fighter like the F-22.
The program sucked away funding from other programs to keep it afloat due to ongoing problems, since it was called "To Big to Fail".
The design trade-offs in order to give the USMC a new V/STOL attack has really hampered performance for the "A" and "C" versions to accommodate the USMC "B" versions lift-fan need in the overall design which locked-in aerodynamic issues, and is dead-weight in the "B" 99% of the time, since its only used for a few minutes when landing vertically on ships.
Plus, it needs a lot of specialized infrastructure to support it due to it's computerized systems.
It's really a misnomer to name it the "Lightning" because of the issues, and determent to the original WW2 P-38 Lightning.
But LM has a cash-cow for the foreseeable future for production & support.
My .02
It's really just a "extremely-expensive" faster attack jet than the Harrier for the USMC, and nowhere near being an air-superiority fighter like the F-22.
The program sucked away funding from other programs to keep it afloat due to ongoing problems, since it was called "To Big to Fail".
The design trade-offs in order to give the USMC a new V/STOL attack has really hampered performance for the "A" and "C" versions to accommodate the USMC "B" versions lift-fan need in the overall design which locked-in aerodynamic issues, and is dead-weight in the "B" 99% of the time, since its only used for a few minutes when landing vertically on ships.
Plus, it needs a lot of specialized infrastructure to support it due to it's computerized systems.
It's really a misnomer to name it the "Lightning" because of the issues, and determent to the original WW2 P-38 Lightning.
But LM has a cash-cow for the foreseeable future for production & support.
My .02
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MrMichaelActual
Master Class
I am curious what your relationship with the F-35 is, you seem to have a lot of info and opinion, sorry to ask, I am new here.
Talyn
SAINT
Life-long interest & knowledge-base on aviation & other military-tech, and the effective use of the tax-payers $$.
There's ben ALOT of bad decisions/mistakes made in the last 30 years when it comes to several programs.
Some govt officials are finally admitting short-comings.
www.defensenews.com
www.thedrive.com
www.defense-aerospace.com
But still making mistakes, especially when it comes to the F-35s engine situation since they did it again.
There's ben ALOT of bad decisions/mistakes made in the last 30 years when it comes to several programs.
Some govt officials are finally admitting short-comings.
The Pentagon will have to live with limits on F-35’s supersonic flights
The Navy's and Marine Corps' versions of the F-35 will have restrictions on how long they can fly at supersonic speeds because of a risk of damage to the tail section.
www.defensenews.com
F-35 Engine Running Too Hot Due To 'Under-Speccing,' Upgrade Now Vital (Updated)
The F-35's engine is having to work harder to cool and power the aircraft's systems, leading to a logistical mess.
www.thedrive.com
Cost of Fixing F-35's Anemic Engine is $38 Billion
WASHINGTON --- The Pentagon’s F-35 fiasco continues. At $412 billion for 2,470 jets for the Air Force, Marines, and Navy (over 75% more than...
www.defense-aerospace.com
But still making mistakes, especially when it comes to the F-35s engine situation since they did it again.
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KillerFord1977
SAINT
Have you flown one ?
Are you a pilot ?
Former Military pilot ?
Do you work in the aviation industry ?
Ever worked on avionics? Flight infrastructure ? Airframes ?