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9mm vs .45 ACP [Debate Finally Settled]

Bassbob said:
The odds of ever having to use a gun in self defense are incredibly low. The odds of having to use a gun in self defense and it resulting in more than 3 shots fired are astronomically low. So why carry the speed strip? In fact why carry a gun at all ?

I wonder why it is that every instructor, that I know of anyway, teaches that multiple hits to the upper torso is the fastest way, under duress, to stop a threat ? Oh yeah, barring immediate demobilization by shutting down the CNS, massive blood loss is the fastest way to immediately stop a threat.
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You’re beginning to see my point.

And I didn’t say I’d immediately go for head shots—I said, if necessary. I doubt it would be. As for the speed strip? I’m completely cognizant of it being, at best, a talisman. I’ve just always been in the habit of carrying spare ammo no matter what the platform that I’ll still do it, because I can.

The thing is…by simply carrying a firearm, I am far ahead of the curve in a self defense incident (which, as you correctly point out, is a pretty rare beast in and of itself). The fact I am trained, practiced, and have the mindset to use the firearm puts me even further ahead of that curve.

Putting hits on target? The situation where that fails—in a non-LEO self defense shooting—is a unicorn. Sure, it can happen; but the fact is, it almost certainly won’t. Most stops are psychological, not physiological—put a hole in someone, and they’re probably gonna stop what they’re doing…put a couple holes in them, and it’s almost guaranteed…no matter how big the holes are.

Now, none of this should be taken as “everyone should carry a .22”; that’s not my point. Carry what you like; if a .500 S&W makes you feel warm and fuzzy—CARRY IT—just be sure you can hit with it, OK?

FWIW, I used to be on the other side; carried a .45 (or a .357 mag); all others are lesser, only big holes matter. Then I took a good, hard look at the data from real self-defense shootings…and admitted I was wrong.
 
TEXASforLIFE said:
What! The junkyard!
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"Oh yeah, barring immediate demobilization by shutting down the CNS, massive blood loss is the fastest way to immediately stop a threat."

Brain Stem; Instantaneous. From the back, top of the neck; from the front, below the chin.

Often enough, the shock of the hit, in most areas except the limbs, (and sometimes in the limbs (think .45) )gives an out of service, for a time. The victim/perp may or may not recover and get back in the fight.
 
C. Sumpin said:
"Oh yeah, barring immediate demobilization by shutting down the CNS, massive blood loss is the fastest way to immediately stop a threat."

Brain Stem; Instantaneous. From the back, top of the neck; from the front, below the chin.

Often enough, the shock of the hit, in most areas except the limbs, (and sometimes in the limbs (think .45) )gives an out of service, for a time. The victim/perp may or may not recover and get back in the fight.
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Sure, but there are plenty of examples of guys getting hit with several .45s even and still living. People receive mortal wounds and continue fighting for several seconds sometimes. So it's like I said earlier. You're playing the odds. Pretty good chance you could stop a guy with five .22 stingers to the chest. I still ain't carrying a .22
 
Speed, Power, Accuracy and some luck generally determine the outcome of a gunfight. Bringing ammunition performance into focus in the real world is an excellent description of the 1986 FBI Miami Firefight by surviving FBI Agent Edmundo Mireles. Agent Jerry Dove's 9mm 115 grain silvertip traversed shooter Platt's chest, passing through his bicep and lung, stopping just short of the heart. The ME reported that Platt would not have been able to survive that wound even if it had occurred in the OR, but the heart shot would have stopped the fight. Although mortally wounded, Platt kept firing his rifle and went on to kill two FBI agents. Platt then got behind the wheel of an FBI car in an attempt to escape, before wounded Agent Mirales killed him at point blank range with his .357 revolver. This is the incident that sent the FBI down the 10mm road, which was later tamed to the .40 caliber that many agencies adopted based on their testing. 9mm ammo has improved a lot since then, but caliber can matter even if shot placement is good.
 
If .22 were a good defensive cartridge, we'd all be carrying .22s, and would have been carrying .22s for 50 or more years. Case closed.
 
HayesGreener said:
Speed, Power, Accuracy and some luck generally determine the outcome of a gunfight. Bringing ammunition performance into focus in the real world is an excellent description of the 1986 FBI Miami Firefight by surviving FBI Agent Edmundo Mireles. Agent Jerry Dove's 9mm 115 grain silvertip traversed shooter Platt's chest, passing through his bicep and lung, stopping just short of the heart. The ME reported that Platt would not have been able to survive that wound even if it had occurred in the OR, but the heart shot would have stopped the fight. Although mortally wounded, Platt kept firing his rifle and went on to kill two FBI agents. Platt then got behind the wheel of an FBI car in an attempt to escape, before wounded Agent Mirales killed him at point blank range with his .357 revolver. This is the incident that sent the FBI down the 10mm road, which was later tamed to the .40 caliber that many agencies adopted based on their testing. 9mm ammo has improved a lot since then, but caliber can matter even if shot placement is good.
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The FBI decided to blame a round (that performed exactly as it was designed) when, in fact, the terrible tactics and planning of the agents is what led to that fiasco…
 
HansGruber said:
If necessary.

But, you see, the odds of that happening to me are astronomically low…and I know that. Better chance of getting hit by lightning twice, in fact.
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With odds like that, what am I doing packing at all?

I sometimes forget my cell and never notice, but that weight in my right front pocket, if it isn't there, just won't let me out the door; perhaps a flat stone instead??
 
HansGruber said:
The FBI decided to blame a round (that performed exactly as it was designed) when, in fact, the terrible tactics and planning of the agents is what led to that fiasco…
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I agree the poor leadership and tactics led to the debacle and the Bureau tried to deflect to ballistics as the point of failure. FBI wanted heroes and couldn't bring themselves to admit they has screwed up. I was a PD SWAT commander at the time and we studied the incident in great detail and we learned a lot from it. However, we can't ignore the fact that, once the shooting started, Dove's 9mm didn't do the job well enough.
 
HayesGreener said:
Perspectives vary. At an instructor course a number of years ago I spoke to an FBI instructor who participated in the testing that resulted in the shift to 9mm. He agreed that the aggressor shot with either caliber wouldn't know the difference. He commented that disruption of important systems, and letting the blood out, were important to stopping an attacker. But he also commented that bigger holes will let the blood out faster. Medical Examiners and surgeons reportedly can't tell the difference. Many men went to their maker from both calibers. But I will stick with my Forty-Five.
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Haven't you guys come to the realization that it's the FBI job to decide the best round for personal defense? Why else would most of us own so many handguns in a wide range of calibers? I've come to suspect there is collusion between this gov't agency and firearm industry in order to influence handgun and ammo sales. ;) Which ever way the flag blows gun owners seem to stampede in that direction. I agree with what HayesGreener and Bassbob said in earlier posts, and believe our lives are controlled by statics. I probably stand a better chance of having to defend myself from beings from another galaxy in the back yard tonight then needing to defend myself during an afternoon trip to Kroger. But I know that reality for each individual is different, and folks need to feel that they are adequately prepared for perceived threats. Does one size fix all? Obviously not. My advice is to stick to whatever you can put the most rounds on a 10" paper plate at 7 yards with. I'll close with this rhetorical question: Which round would any of us want to be shot with?
 
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Bassbob said:
9mm is easier to shoot, statistically, for a greater number of variable types and sizes of people. Follow up shots are faster and more accurate than with a .45. Even for people like me that train with them and prefer carrying them. My time difference is small, but slightly faster with a 9mm and my accuracy is actually better with the .45.

What I am saying is that I agree with you.
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A very good point you made. I shoot quite a bit, both 9mm and .45ACP. I can get off more shots quicker with a 9mm but I continue to be and always have been more accurate with a .45ACP. I proved that once again this last Friday. It seems like every 9mm handgun I own is a bit different as far as point of aim but all three of my 45ACP handguns favor a 6 O'clock hold and just about every shot is easy to replicate. I have a Shield 45ACP, a Glock 21, and a Springfield XD Mod 2 Service model and my point of aim is practically identical on all three. Fast forward to my new Glock 43X I tried out this last Friday. I was all over the damn place the first few shots until I figured out I needed to hold it dead on instead of a 6 O'clock hold which it seems is what my eyes and hands naturally want to look for. My Taurus 9mm handguns all favor a six o clock hold which will put you almost dead center every time. One of my newest acquisitions, my Sig P320X Compact you need to cover your target with the front sight...lol. I very much like my 9mm handguns for carrying and being more concealable but my 45s seem to be much less picky about aiming point..lol
 
Maybe the best gun for self defense is the one you have ammo for.
In these times of shortages of ammunition and reloading components, your first choice of carry weapon may relegated to one that can be sufficiently fed, not necessarily the one you prefer. ;)
There was a considerable drought for a time where I didn't have 9mm ammo, but I did have .45 acp and .380.
 
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