Annihilator
Emissary
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Last edited:
AK-47 or AR-15
- Thread starter Annihilator
- Start date
Annihilator
Emissary
Nice AK’s ginge, my brother has a Saiga, he adores it.
Ginge
Elite
The Saiga is an underrated rifle. They’re identical to the current AK 100 series rifles minus a few features and a cheaper finish. The rifle in the bottom of the first picture is a Saiga .223 I rebuilt into an AK 101.
The Molot rifles are excellent as well. Based on the RPK platform, they shoot exceptionally well.
The Molot rifles are excellent as well. Based on the RPK platform, they shoot exceptionally well.
Epeeist
Elite
AR without a doubt. Not to say I don't own and appreciate quality AK's, but I think the AR is an objectively better gun for most purposes. It is on average more accurate, more ergonomic, lighter, and much more adaptable. These days quality AR's are even cheaper, at least in the states. It does take an operator willing to maintain their weapons, so the AK is a better fit for poorly trained militias, conscript armies, etc.
jfmorris
Master Class
I will jump into this discussion by saying I currently own neither. But I've been looking into building or buying an AR, and have looked at the AK as well. The latest issue of one of my CCW magazines had an article about the AK that made me consider it. The model in the article was an Arsenal Underfolder, so it was not a cheap AK by any means.
The AK has going for it:
- Reliability
- Stopping power
- Penetration
- Better for hunting larger game (bullet has more than twice the mass)
The AR has going for it:
- Accuracy (both are good out to 100 yards though)
- Probably cheaper ammo
- Much more modular
- More popular
The AK has going for it:
- Reliability
- Stopping power
- Penetration
- Better for hunting larger game (bullet has more than twice the mass)
The AR has going for it:
- Accuracy (both are good out to 100 yards though)
- Probably cheaper ammo
- Much more modular
- More popular
Ginge
Elite
Ill just put up some real world info. One is not superior to the other. What is superior is knowing how to capitalize on the strengths of both systems and respect their weaknesses. Something called training.
Both rifles will shoot more accurately than the shooter. This is where The training comes into play.
The lack of AK accuracy stems from its garbages ammunition, and lack of time spent behind the rifle. There’s literally not one good match round or load available.
Literally everything about the debate other than what I stated is 100% subjective. I can reload an AK just about as fast as an AR 10. Knowing the weapon goes a long way. That goes for not only this debate, but any weapon.
Both rifles will shoot more accurately than the shooter. This is where The training comes into play.
The lack of AK accuracy stems from its garbages ammunition, and lack of time spent behind the rifle. There’s literally not one good match round or load available.
Literally everything about the debate other than what I stated is 100% subjective. I can reload an AK just about as fast as an AR 10. Knowing the weapon goes a long way. That goes for not only this debate, but any weapon.
^ This, +1.
@jfmorris , I would implore you to get in some good training with good folks before you cement your views based on something that anyone else may say about either of these weapon systems.
In all honesty, they're both excellent, and as Ginge noted above, objectively, their "real-world" performance much more is a reflection of the shooter behind the gun than the capabilities of the weapon itself.
The AR can be just as reliable as an AK in the "real world" and in the same manner, putting a good shooter behind the AK and a mediocre one behind the AR, and all bets behind "accuracy" goes out the window.
Ammo can be cheaply had for both (although as Ginge noted, part of the AK's issue at-range is related to the lack of availability of loads like the 77 gr. Black Hills "Mk262 Mod1" and other similar - which really helps even the average Milspec AR live up to its potential) as well.
Don't let preconceived notions hold you back - get some good instruction and get out there and explore for yourself.
@jfmorris , I would implore you to get in some good training with good folks before you cement your views based on something that anyone else may say about either of these weapon systems.
In all honesty, they're both excellent, and as Ginge noted above, objectively, their "real-world" performance much more is a reflection of the shooter behind the gun than the capabilities of the weapon itself.
The AR can be just as reliable as an AK in the "real world" and in the same manner, putting a good shooter behind the AK and a mediocre one behind the AR, and all bets behind "accuracy" goes out the window.
Ammo can be cheaply had for both (although as Ginge noted, part of the AK's issue at-range is related to the lack of availability of loads like the 77 gr. Black Hills "Mk262 Mod1" and other similar - which really helps even the average Milspec AR live up to its potential) as well.
Don't let preconceived notions hold you back - get some good instruction and get out there and explore for yourself.
Epeeist
Elite
Ginge I am not trying to pick a fight, but I feel like I have to push back a little here, since I think there are some factual inaccuracies regarding a couple of your statements. On the whole I do agree completely that training to your gear is the solution to many problems. However there are certain mechanical limitations that must be factored in for a fair side by side view of these platforms.
I have to disagree with this. Neither a rack grade AR or AK is a particularly accurate rifle, but any competent shooter can quickly reach the appreciable limits of mechanical accuracy with both these platforms. Or you can just lock it into a rest and shoot for groups to get measurable results. Neither is a sub MOA gun, but the the AK has multiple points of impingement on the barrel, lacks a good optics mounting solution, a generally poor trigger and has looser tolerances for the bore and barrel than the AR. Hence it tends to be about 1-2 MOA less accurate than a comparable AR. Sure, you can get a custom built Rifle Dynamics AK that is close to MOA, but at this point we are talking several thousand dollars and then you get into custom AR's that are sub .5 MOA.
Good and Match are somewhat subjective, but Nosler, Lapua, Fort Scott and Hornady all make 7.62x39 ammo that is at or sub MOA out of my rifles (VZ58, CZ 527) that are not AK's (Norinco Mak90, Arsenal 107R) at 100 yards. Granted its all also rather pricey, and since its only really good to about 300 yards, I agree that a good long range match round does not exist. However that is due to the ballistic limitations of the cartridge. It just can't reach very long. It drops subsonic not long after 300 yards.
Completely, 100% agree. But equal training on a weapon that is less ergonomic, less mechanically accurate and heavier will produce less efficient results than the same amount of time training on a weapon system that does not start off with those limitations.
Ginge
Elite
Thats cool to disagree, but in reality, its apples to oranges. Im speaking strictly on their intended purpose and combat effectiveness.
Comparing a 30 caliber round out of a pencil barrel to a .22 caliber that has ammunition designed to have excellent external ballistics is not a fair comparison to begin with.
The point being is that they are both intermediate caliber rifles, and that one does not equate to a superior platform over the other. There is literally no proof or data to support that an M4 is more effective in combat than an AK74, with an equally well trained individual behind them. But many people will argue they are, and its for subjective reasons.
Despite what many may think, the AK does indeed have a solid mounting platform for optics, especially the newer AK12, and 200 series, but people tend to write it off for more subjective reasons. Its about the way the Russians look at combat. Its much different than the way the US looks at it.
Barrel harmonics have never been a strong suit of the Kanshnikov design, but in combat the weapons are proven to be more than capable. All of mine shoot right at 2 moa or better, and the 5.45 Vepr is even better than that with the barrel being an inch thick.
I will not argue that they are sub moa guns, but we also dont have anything available to test their true potential like the AR has going for it.
The real comparison needs to be with a 5.45, and not a 7.62 like so many tend to do. They are much more equal in their weights, velocity and overall performance.
Comparing a 30 caliber round out of a pencil barrel to a .22 caliber that has ammunition designed to have excellent external ballistics is not a fair comparison to begin with.
The point being is that they are both intermediate caliber rifles, and that one does not equate to a superior platform over the other. There is literally no proof or data to support that an M4 is more effective in combat than an AK74, with an equally well trained individual behind them. But many people will argue they are, and its for subjective reasons.
Despite what many may think, the AK does indeed have a solid mounting platform for optics, especially the newer AK12, and 200 series, but people tend to write it off for more subjective reasons. Its about the way the Russians look at combat. Its much different than the way the US looks at it.
Barrel harmonics have never been a strong suit of the Kanshnikov design, but in combat the weapons are proven to be more than capable. All of mine shoot right at 2 moa or better, and the 5.45 Vepr is even better than that with the barrel being an inch thick.
I will not argue that they are sub moa guns, but we also dont have anything available to test their true potential like the AR has going for it.
The real comparison needs to be with a 5.45, and not a 7.62 like so many tend to do. They are much more equal in their weights, velocity and overall performance.
I might have just had a bad gun, but in my experience the AK is trash aside from being indestructible. So, AR all the way for me.
wolfpack076
Professional
Ar for me all the way all day every day... Just my two cents....
ddeuce22
Professional
I'm more partial to the AR platform personally, but I don't dislike the AK. Eventually i'll add one to my collection. Almost did today as a brand new LGS just had a grand opening less than a mile from my house and they had some cool Polish and Romanian made AK's on the wall. I'm more familiar with the AR platform so i'll stick to what I know in a serious situation.
