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Another wasted life-negligent LE shooting

Sadly It happens and will as long as agency training keeps being agency training!

Since I retired I have been to several classes from Dave Spaulding classes, Lee Weems got my Range Master Instructor (Tom Givens) John Hearne, Darryl Bolke and Brian Eastridge.

The vetted national level private sector instructors and their programs I mentioned are phenomenal and I wish I would have done that while still working. They run hot ranges with 360 awareness.

The biggest issue with agencies they dumb everything down. They want to be “safe” and don’t load until they tell you then immediately unload when you shoot a stage. That’s not how you carry guns and is why people treat guns like they are loaded until they think they are not loaded then rule 1, 2 and 3 are out the window and injury or death happens
 
This is a tragedy, plain n simple, and Bauer and his family have my prayers 🙏…

Far as the overall situation, I personally believe the closest the IRS needs to get involving itself with ‘justice’ or law enforcement is the courthouse.
We do not need every Fed agency to have an armed branch. Period.

I didn’t see it in the article, but I wonder if Bauer was one of the 80k new IRS hires the current administration has pushed for?
 
ECS686 said:
Sadly It happens and will as long as agency training keeps being agency training!

Since I retired I have been to several classes from Dave Spaulding classes, Lee Weems got my Range Master Instructor (Tom Givens) John Hearne, Darryl Bolke and Brian Eastridge.

The vetted national level private sector instructors and their programs I mentioned are phenomenal and I wish I would have done that while still working. They run hot ranges with 360 awareness.

The biggest issue with agencies they dumb everything down. They want to be “safe” and don’t load until they tell you then immediately unload when you shoot a stage. That’s not how you carry guns and is why people treat guns like they are loaded until they think they are not loaded then rule 1, 2 and 3 are out the window and injury or death happens
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I always ran my ranges hot for that very reason. We always cleared guns at logical points but everyone needs to internalize that they are responsible for safety.

There are redundant protocols for ensuring these incidents don't occur. I think the instructors themselves are often not properly trained, or took shortcuts, or were distracted, or just had a case of the dumbass.

As I have learned, never underestimate students' ingenuity to overcome your safeguards
 
TidalWave said:
This is a tragedy, plain n simple, and Bauer and his family have my prayers 🙏…

Far as the overall situation, I personally believe the closest the IRS needs to get involving itself with ‘justice’ or law enforcement is the courthouse.
We do not need every Fed agency to have an armed branch. Period.

I didn’t see it in the article, but I wonder if Bauer was one of the 80k new IRS hires the current administration has pushed for?
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PS-
As with all such articles, it’s often not what the article tells us but what they left out that matters…
 
TidalWave said:
This is a tragedy, plain n simple, and Bauer and his family have my prayers 🙏…

Far as the overall situation, I personally believe the closest the IRS needs to get involving itself with ‘justice’ or law enforcement is the courthouse.
We do not need every Fed agency to have an armed branch. Period.

I didn’t see it in the article, but I wonder if Bauer was one of the 80k new IRS hires the current administration has pushed for?
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Bauer would had to have had more than 10 years on the job. IRS has about 2000 agents in their criminal investigation division. They are trained at FLETC the same as every other federal LE agency, which is why I say everyone involved knew better. They are dealing with some serious criminals and congress has given them responsibility for those criminal investigations.
 
HayesGreener said:
Bauer would had to have had more than 10 years on the job. IRS has about 2000 agents in their criminal investigation division. They are trained at FLETC the same as every other federal LE agency, which is why I say everyone involved knew better. They are dealing with some serious criminals and congress has given them responsibility for those criminal investigations.
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Thanks Hayes…. I freely admit my knowledge of their org and ops is nil.
Was just speculating. But I couldn’t help recalling the recent push to hire and arm a bunch more agents ; I wonder what the status is of that ?
 
Being involved as a FLETC instructor I have seen or read AAR on some weird things. Hot brass is a culprit in several cases. We had it in our safety briefs and recommended collared shirts you could be pop collar cool for once.

On serious incidents that come to mind someone lost their eye from hot brass from an MP5 that went perfectly between their sunglasses (Oakley tactical glasses in this case) that resulted in 100% billed hats from them on in static or movement lines. Hot brass caused about her to turn and impulse squeeze discharging the handgun into another resulting in a fatality.

So like many I’m curious on the specifics of this this and anytime something happens.
 
TidalWave said:
Thanks Hayes…. I freely admit my knowledge of their org and ops is nil.
Was just speculating. But I couldn’t help recalling the recent push to hire and arm a bunch more agents ; I wonder what the status is of that ?
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Yeah the 80,000 armed agents thing is myth. I don't doubt that some of he new hires would be CID agents but have not seen a number. 80,000 is approximately the total number of IRS employees currently. Most of the proposed hires are clerks and auditors.
 
HayesGreener said:
Yeah the 80,000 armed agents thing is myth. I don't doubt that some of he new hires would be CID agents but have not seen a number. 80,000 is approximately the total number of IRS employees currently. Most of the proposed hires are clerks and auditors.
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Be careful you interject numbers and common sense and some will accuse you of supporting Biden LOL
 
ECS686 said:
Being involved as a FLETC instructor I have seen or read AAR on some weird things. Hot brass is a culprit in several cases. We had it in our safety briefs and recommended collared shirts you could be pop collar cool for once.

On serious incidents that come to mind someone lost their eye from hot brass from an MP5 that went perfectly between their sunglasses (Oakley tactical glasses in this case) that resulted in 100% billed hats from them on in static or movement lines. Hot brass caused about her to turn and impulse squeeze discharging the handgun into another resulting in a fatality.

So like many I’m curious on the specifics of this this and anytime something happens.
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Thanks for your work at FLETC. I was there a number of times and know firearms training is professionally done. I have attended many instructor courses and am disappointed that post mortems of such incidents are not covered in more detail. IALEFI does some but most are not going to get those details. Details will emerge somewhere in the future but another will occur before then.
 
HayesGreener said:
Thanks for your work at FLETC. I was there a number of times and know firearms training is professionally done. I have attended many instructor courses and am disappointed that post mortems of such incidents are not covered in more detail. IALEFI does some but most are not going to get those details. Details will emerge somewhere in the future but another will occur before then.
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Thanks. I was on a Lee Weems podcast with a panel of trainers talking about starting over. Our one thing in common was we would started the private training sooner with folks like Range Master Gunsite Spaulding etc as agencies only want someone to be a safety monitor and administer that yearly test.

I was fortunate as I was taught early in how to troubleshoot and diagnose shooters to correct them and FLETC does a decent job but sadly most line instructors don’t know how and at best you’ll get “quit jerking the trigger” instead of here’s how to hold the gun still!
 
somorris said:
How sad. Just a moment of carelessness can change your life forever. So sad for the young man’s family.
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Absolutely, wow. This one seems a bit more intense because reading the article, it happened 15 minutes away from where I work, I didn’t even know that. I saw Honor Health Deer Valley and did a double take. Oh man, wife and 4 children… and so senseless. 🙁
 
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