testtest

Real history of the 10mm

rcurtner said:
Thanks, enjoyed the video.
Click to expand...
Especially the epilogue.

I lived through all those machinations as an instructor and LEO. In hindsight, I would have stayed with the .45 acp throughout and ignored the rest of it. I was SWAT commander when the FBI Miami shootout happened and we looked at it closely. Certainly a more powerful round would have ended it.
But, the agents were killed resultjng from bad leadership and bad tactics. But they couldn't admit that and chose instead to fault the cartridge and took us down the 10mm and 40cal road.
 
HayesGreener said:
Especially the epilogue.

I lived through all those machinations as an instructor and LEO. In hindsight, I would have stayed with the .45 acp throughout and ignored the rest of it. I was SWAT commander when the FBI Miami shootout happened and we looked at it closely. Certainly a more powerful round would have ended it.
But, the agents were killed resultjng from bad leadership and bad tactics. But they couldn't admit that and chose instead to fault the cartridge and took us down the 10mm and 40cal road.
Click to expand...
The thing that gets overlooked in the Miami incident Platt was shot 14 times. At a Rangemaster instructor class I saw a pic of him laying on his back at the scene stripped down to his underwear with IVs in him. He lived 14 minutes til they got him to the hospital.

There were no hits anywhere on the thoracic cavity or torso. Except for the side hit from Agent Dove which you couldn’t see from the pic.
Which why the 9mm 115 Silvertip gets the blame many many other shootings it has done great.

Tactics were a big part (one agent lost his gun out of the car while driving into the debacle and had to go back and look for it)

Not knocking the Agents just several Murphys Law things just happened.

Also no disrespect on SEAT I ran a SORT team and while the shootin standards were high and it has gotten a lot better on training era 1979’s and 1980’s it was more ballistic Masturbation at practice than marksmanship in the late 1980’s.

When they came out with 3X5 cars drills that was the best thing as that was the size of a heart and aorta. I know a person personally that in one of his LE Shootings he started to shoot the BG full frontal o the high thoracic area where the heart would be and as he drew the BG turns completely sideways while still aiming the gun giving my guy a side cross torso shot. He said his target area never changed from the front to the side BECAUSE they use a lot of 3x5 drills

Sort of like LEOs get cocky on their qual scores with a HUGE B27 but through up a B8 repair center for a 5 yard round up drill or one of Dave Spaulding’s 3x5 or Thoracic targets and so his fade back and they fail
Miserably!
 
Those guys were killers and the agents knew it. They deserved a SWAT takedown. The agents had plenty of firepower including M16's available to them but couldn't bring the firepower to bear because they couldn't get their act together. They were simply ill prepared for the gunfight. One agent lost his revolver under the seat of his car. An agent couldn't use his shotgun because another agent had removed it from his car without him knowing it. Dove fired a lethal round but couldn't fire followup rounds because his pistol was disabled by a .223 round. That guy just didn't die fast enough. A severely wounded Ed Mirales ended it at point blank range with a revolver and his former Marine aggressiveness. Murphy had a hand in it, but FBI leadership's arrogance was the real failing in that charlie foxtrot.
 
interesting vid.. I'm with HG on this one - FBI T&T were not great. The abysmal rate of accuracy was terrible, as is so often the case here on the Armory discussions, and elsewhere, shot placement is king. Many mistakes were made and blaming the equipment, or the troops, is as old as combat/war itself. Great leadership takes responsibility and puts positive measurable change into effect. Good leadership tries to tinker with training and tools. Poor leadership looks to place blame to deflect from their cupability. One more thing as an opinion here, not blaming the agents at all, it's a shootout, and usually things fly out the window during such stressful events. JMO
 
trader said:
interesting vid.. I'm with HG on this one - FBI T&T were not great. The abysmal rate of accuracy was terrible, as is so often the case here on the Armory discussions, and elsewhere, shot placement is king. Many mistakes were made and blaming the equipment, or the troops, is as old as combat/war itself. Great leadership takes responsibility and puts positive measurable change into effect. Good leadership tries to tinker with training and tools. Poor leadership looks to place blame to deflect from their cupability. One more thing as an opinion here, not blaming the agents at all, it's a shootout, and usually things fly out the window during such stressful events. JMO
Click to expand...

In an article I have packed away a good point was the FBI had to blame the 9mm and the fact they went with the 45 was to save criticism as they could have used the 45 all along. So had they went to the 45 when it was available someone somewhere in leadership thought that was bad optics

Which another article in I believe Guns and Ammo or Shooting times Wiley Clapp did a side by side comparison with a 40 S&W with 180 and a 185 Grain 45 acp and it was almost the exact same performance test guns were the S&W 4006 and S&W 4566 both with 4 1:4” barrels.
 
ECS686 said:
In an article I have packed away a good point was the FBI had to blame the 9mm and the fact they went with the 45 was to save criticism as they could have used the 45 all along. So had they went to the 45 when it was available someone somewhere in leadership thought that was bad optics

Which another article in I believe Guns and Ammo or Shooting times Wiley Clapp did a side by side comparison with a 40 S&W with 180 and a 185 Grain 45 acp and it was almost the exact same performance test guns were the S&W 4006 and S&W 4566 both with 4 1:4” barrels.
Click to expand...
I am in agreement with your point here.. Did see 45 vs 40 comparisons. I Upvoted you
 
Last edited:
trader said:
interesting vid.. I'm with HG on this one - FBI T&T were not great. The abysmal rate of accuracy was terrible, as is so often the case here on the Armory discussions, and elsewhere, shot placement is king. Many mistakes were made and blaming the equipment, or the troops, is as old as combat/war itself. Great leadership takes responsibility and puts positive measurable change into effect. Good leadership tries to tinker with training and tools. Poor leadership looks to place blame to deflect from their cupability. One more thing as an opinion here, not blaming the agents at all, it's a shootout, and usually things fly out the window during such stressful events. JMO
Click to expand...
Nobody wants to sully the reputations of officers KIA, so we talk of things like valor and what a great person he or she was. It is right that we do that. We learned in the 60's if you don't take an unvarnished look at what went wrong after the funeral, it will repeat. Pierce Brooks illustrated the point in his book, Officer Down Code 3, by naming the 10 deadly sins. Caliber Press took it a few steps further. Those hard learned lessons have kept a lot of officers alive. But almost that entire generation of officers have retired. We can't save them all, but we can save some of them with good training and leadership and a proper mindset.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top