Red dot
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TEXASforLIFE
SAINT
wolfpack076
Professional
Greetings from Pennsylvania
RickAnderson
Custom
Does it have Optics Provisions? i.e. the slide is already cut for mounting a RDS? I didn't think any of the XD's were.
If not, you have the option of sending the slide off to have it cut for an optics,
Or
Get a RDS mount that replaces the rear sight and mounts in dovetail for the rear sight.
BTW, I had to cut my XD-M sights out of the slide, they were in there too tight for a sight pusher or punches. And you'll find accounts that all XD/XD-M/XD-E/XD mod.2 are that way.
There are a lot to choose from out there... ....and they have different mounting footprints... ...so your choices might be limited by the mounts you can use on your pistol.
I just got my XD-M .45 4.5" slide back from Powder River Precision, they cost a little more, but do an excellent job. They cut it just like the factory and provide you one factory adapter plate of your choosing and a cover plate. For an extra fee they will swap your sights for you, see above, the XD are near impossible to get out DIY.
The other service I've see will just cut the slide for the mounting footprint you pick, to screw the RDS directly to the slide, no adapter plate, which means you're stuck with that footprint from then on out. They don't provided a cover plate and cut into the firing pin block pocket, requiring you too shorten the firing pin block (they may do it for you) and replace the spring with a shorter one. No alignment pins, them stating the screws are more than enough to align them. I wasn't too impressed, but they are $45 cheaper than the much better job by Powder River Precision.
I have the Trijicon RMR, Vortex Viper and the Leupold Deltapoint Pro.
The Deltapoint pro is the biggest and if you want iron sights to co-witness you're not likely to be able to find them tall enough.
I really like the RMR, it looks like it could be run over by a truck and still work, as well it looks equipped to handle the most extreme light environments, the glass is a little tinted, and I think that is because of filters that won't let the dot wash out even on the brightest desert day or brightest complete snow cover day. It also one of the most expensive.
The Vortex Viper is the best value IMO, it really seems to perform as well as the RMR, about the same size, the window is clearer, because I suspect it doesn't have the glass treatment and filters to handle the most extreme light environments like the RMR. They look adequately tough, but not as tough as the RMR. BUT, they are less than half the price of the RMR.
All three have performed without problems.
Any red dots will be susceptible to wet weather, note I said extreme light environments for the RMR, not extreme weather.
There are others, more and less expensive, but I have not tried them.
And finally, avoid the temptation of buying the $100 or less no name Red Dot. Mounted on a slide is an extreme environment of shock and acceleration. Some of the toy $100 or less Red Dots are for air soft. You'll find reviews stating they used them on real pistols, and they had all sorts of problems and outright failures, if no losing zero in a matter of dozen of shots. Good Optics, especially on the high shock and acceleration of a slide, require a lot of quality as well as test and development that factors into the price. Having said that, I just picked up a 2nd Vortex Viper for $170 on sale, and that has been serving me well so far.
If not, you have the option of sending the slide off to have it cut for an optics,
Or
Get a RDS mount that replaces the rear sight and mounts in dovetail for the rear sight.
BTW, I had to cut my XD-M sights out of the slide, they were in there too tight for a sight pusher or punches. And you'll find accounts that all XD/XD-M/XD-E/XD mod.2 are that way.
There are a lot to choose from out there... ....and they have different mounting footprints... ...so your choices might be limited by the mounts you can use on your pistol.
I just got my XD-M .45 4.5" slide back from Powder River Precision, they cost a little more, but do an excellent job. They cut it just like the factory and provide you one factory adapter plate of your choosing and a cover plate. For an extra fee they will swap your sights for you, see above, the XD are near impossible to get out DIY.
The other service I've see will just cut the slide for the mounting footprint you pick, to screw the RDS directly to the slide, no adapter plate, which means you're stuck with that footprint from then on out. They don't provided a cover plate and cut into the firing pin block pocket, requiring you too shorten the firing pin block (they may do it for you) and replace the spring with a shorter one. No alignment pins, them stating the screws are more than enough to align them. I wasn't too impressed, but they are $45 cheaper than the much better job by Powder River Precision.
I have the Trijicon RMR, Vortex Viper and the Leupold Deltapoint Pro.
The Deltapoint pro is the biggest and if you want iron sights to co-witness you're not likely to be able to find them tall enough.
I really like the RMR, it looks like it could be run over by a truck and still work, as well it looks equipped to handle the most extreme light environments, the glass is a little tinted, and I think that is because of filters that won't let the dot wash out even on the brightest desert day or brightest complete snow cover day. It also one of the most expensive.
The Vortex Viper is the best value IMO, it really seems to perform as well as the RMR, about the same size, the window is clearer, because I suspect it doesn't have the glass treatment and filters to handle the most extreme light environments like the RMR. They look adequately tough, but not as tough as the RMR. BUT, they are less than half the price of the RMR.
All three have performed without problems.
Any red dots will be susceptible to wet weather, note I said extreme light environments for the RMR, not extreme weather.
There are others, more and less expensive, but I have not tried them.
And finally, avoid the temptation of buying the $100 or less no name Red Dot. Mounted on a slide is an extreme environment of shock and acceleration. Some of the toy $100 or less Red Dots are for air soft. You'll find reviews stating they used them on real pistols, and they had all sorts of problems and outright failures, if no losing zero in a matter of dozen of shots. Good Optics, especially on the high shock and acceleration of a slide, require a lot of quality as well as test and development that factors into the price. Having said that, I just picked up a 2nd Vortex Viper for $170 on sale, and that has been serving me well so far.
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Keystone19250
SAINT
Since I have the XDM 4.5 45 I appreciate the good review on Powder River Precision and their ability to machine the slide for a red dot however since I’d like the ability to run the gun with and without a red dot I’d like to see SA step up and offer more complete slides with the OSP cut for multiple models.
Not an expert but did attend a Dave Spaulding Handgun Combatives MRDS class last year with a Glock 34 and a Leupold DPP and have been familiarizing myself or and on since but it is not my routine carry gun..
What I discovered if I make the jump to using a RDS I’d recommend an enclosed emitter like the Aimpoint Acro P2.
As well as take a class from a reputable vetted instructor (not a buddy that thinks he knows)
AND set aside a few thousand rounds to get conditioned to it. Spaulding says it’s 3K rounds before you get on the same skill level as your irons. For some that might be a little conservative
There are some phenomenal Red Dot Shooters I’m still on the fence if I have passed where they increase my times/ accuracy at least on my G34
What I discovered if I make the jump to using a RDS I’d recommend an enclosed emitter like the Aimpoint Acro P2.
As well as take a class from a reputable vetted instructor (not a buddy that thinks he knows)
AND set aside a few thousand rounds to get conditioned to it. Spaulding says it’s 3K rounds before you get on the same skill level as your irons. For some that might be a little conservative
There are some phenomenal Red Dot Shooters I’m still on the fence if I have passed where they increase my times/ accuracy at least on my G34
Keystone19250
SAINT
Although I respect your opinion saying that it will take on average of 3K rounds to become proficient with a red dot over irons is ludicrous, I’ve been shooting handguns for years using just iron sights and I’m very proficient doing so however after installing a Holosun red dot on my newly acquired XDM Elite compact 10mm it took less than 10 rounds to sight in and less than 200 rounds to produce shot groups less than 1.5 inches on bullseye and I’ve been doing the same on every subsequent range trip since.
Could be your using the wrong gun.
Hammer67
Professional
98% of that can be achieved with dry practice reps, working on 'presenting' the dot over and over again until it's automatic.
Keystone19250
SAINT
Exactly.
RickAnderson
Custom
Then keep the Powder River Precision (PRP) Service in mind. They will supply you a cover plate to go along with it. It came back to me just like the Springfield factory setup. A cover plate that can be installed so the slide looks darn close to the non RDS profile.
They even color the cut and cover to match the slide. Not sur if they blue it or melonite it, cause I'm not sure if the XDM 4.5 45 slide is melonite, blued, parked or cerakote, I just know its a deep black and what ever they did to the cover plate and it matches.
Only thing I can tell the difference from the factory cut. The machining, there is a blister (mound) that sticks up from the flat plane of the cut, for the firing pin block. The factory cut, this is smooth shape, the PRP cut has this blister/mound stepped. The adapter plate and cover plate fit perfect, so it makes no difference to me.
The supplied screws are not blue or colored, I think they're stainless, but they come bright silver. So were splitting hairs here.
Yes, the PRP service cost a little more than $200 when you throw in shipping and taxes. Which is about the same price that the Springfield accessory store is asking for the 9mm XD-M optics cut replacement slide. But they are only selling the 9mm version as of now. But yes, I expect you would prefer to have two slides, one with a RDS and another without with the standard low profile sights, to be able to swap back and forth, and if offered the slide, you could have that for the same amount of money.
Springfield has discontinued the XDM 4.5 45, so I think your being a little optimistic thinking they'll be offering an optics slide in the near future. But you never know.
Keystone19250
SAINT
Great however I don’t want to be installing, removing and re-installing over and over.
RickAnderson
Custom
Hmmm, that doesn't seem to be my experience. Perhaps from the perspective of expert shooters maintaining a very high skill level, I could see that being true. But for me and a lot of reactional shooters, its a couple hundred rounds. Of course we don't have any business shooting in a major match. We aren't taking Competitive shooting classes.
I guess I'm arguing the less you know, the easier it is to learn something new. Or maybe, the less skilled you are, it takes less time to build back up to the lower bar of skill in a new way.
One of the things you'll see in these general threads about Red Dots, and is also my experience, is the guys that vision degraded slightly with age and need reading glasses. Especially when your distant vision is still perfect and reading glasses interfere with distant vision.
My shooting declined and it was more difficult to sight in with iron sights as I got older. I had to use reading glasses to focus on the front sight, but since I need to take my reading glasses off to see properly for far vision, my sight picture was a focused front sight, but that fuzzy target behind the front sight was even much fuzzier and harder to line up, because the reading glasses interfere with my far vision.
The red dot of the RDS is focused in the distance, like the target. That is what the reading glasses crowd discover right away, they take off their reading glasses and have the clearest sight picture they have seen in years. My shooting jumped immediately simply because of that advantage of it all being a distant sight picture.
Yea, I thought you were hinting at that. You don't want to be removing and re-installing the RDS on the slide again and again, right? You'd rather have two slides, one with and one without, and just swap the slides.
SimonRL
Hellcat
Sure, you can fire a couple hundred rounds down range and get a good feel for a red dot and can get very tight groupings with enough practice. If you take a tactical handgun course and draw on a target with a timer you will quickly see how good your red dot skills really are and the 3k rounds comment - while high, in my humble opinion - makes sense. Dry fire practice is fine for developing your red dot draw and you can get very good at presenting your gun under conditions you control, but during live fire under pressure that changes pretty dramatically. It seems to me that if you are newer to shooting a red dot is easier to learn because you don't have years of iron sights. Whereas shooters with a long history of iron sights find red dots hard to adjust to and tend to overcomplicate things because they have muscle memory - mental and physical - and it's often easier to drop back to what you know best.
Keystone19250
SAINT
I stand by my comment……..
3 thousand rounds to get used to a red dot wether you take professional training or not and or been shooting using irons forever is ridiculous.
I didn’t come up with that number. Dave Spaulding did and I tend to believe it’s is a good baseline. Dave is one of the handful of credible trainers that can back up what he does. Several others have repeated similar findings Darryl Bolkie and others.
Also nobody would probably say Paul Howe is wrong with his background and he is opposed to Red Dits across the board.
RickAnderson
Custom
Red Dots are not for everyone, nor every situation. So it would be ridiculous to say everyone should be using Red Dots across the board, at the same time, I think its just as ridiculous to say no one should be using Red Dots across the board.
RickAnderson
Custom
He has great points, but I don't agree with all of them. I'm not a 1%'er, yet I benefitted from them right away. Not sure where all this, you need 3k rounds of training, only the 1% crowd will ever be able to realize the benefit, comes from?
My experience, at first they do slow you down a little as you have to hunt to find the dot in the window. But its not much different than when you're out of practice and have to hunt to get the iron sights lined up. With a little practice, develop some muscle memory, you raise the pistol in front of the target at the right height and angle that you can quickly line up the iron sights, you also can develop the muscle memory to raise the pistol at the right height and angle the dot will appear in the window right away.
Yes, they will require maintenance and will be more likely to fail than iron sights. I would total agree with someone that daily carries or has a self-defense gun in a ready position electing for the much higher reliability of iron sights than a red dot.
Having co-witness sights (as in back-up iron sights that can be used through the window) is a back up if the red dot fails. BUT, its not as easy to use the iron sights with a window between them as nothing in between them. As well, in most cases you will need suppressor height sights to co-witness, that won't be as accurate close up as normal height sights.
And fogging, yes it happens, I never seen a red dot fog so bad it was unusable, but it is does degrade the effectiveness. So there may be worse conditions that make the fogging even worse than I have experienced. Again another reason if you need the highest reliability possible you should stick with iron sights.
Hammer67
Professional
Careful, Rick - if we remove sweeping generalizations from the equation, there will be little left for the internet to argue about.
