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SHOTGUN PATTERNING FOR HOME DEFENSE

Talyn

Talyn

SAINT
Founding Member
Watch as Clint Smith, President and Training Director of Thunder Ranch, takes on the role of myth buster in a video that explores what a buckshot pattern looks like at common in-the-home distances. He also demonstrates an easy drill that you can replicate to review shotgun patterning at different distances.

Shotgun Patterning

 
HayesGreener said:
Excellent video. General consensus among LE firearms instructors is that 00 buck is effective out to 25 yards, #4 buck at 15 yards, but both can be lethal far beyond that.
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My house only measures about 24 x 36 then add in the walls for rooms and such. Since I inherited my brothers (.45/.410) Judge 3" barrel, I have some of the fancier defense rounds in 2 1/2", but then I came across some 3" with 5- 000 buckshot, personally I figure this is more than sufficient. Hopefully I never find out!!
 
Talyn said:
Clint/Thunder Ranch is probably the most "practical" instructor/course work out there.
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Well yeah. Technically not that practical for me since I would have to sell my car to afford the trip and the class, but practically speaking, well, you know down here us trogladytes just have to make do however we can. :)
 
This sort of demonstration is eye opening. While most of those on a forum like this understand how shotguns work, it still raised my eyebrows when I took a class and saw this first hand.

In practical terms, this seems to mitigate the most common argument (although an incorrect one) favoring a shotgun for home defense. Our house is probably like many where a shotgun is practically too long to be considered viable. Nevertheless, the business end of a 12 gauge is a very intimidating sight to someone intent on bad deeds.
 
Blackmesa96 said:
This sort of demonstration is eye opening. While most of those on a forum like this understand how shotguns work, it still raised my eyebrows when I took a class and saw this first hand.

In practical terms, this seems to mitigate the most common argument (although an incorrect one) favoring a shotgun for home defense. Our house is probably like many where a shotgun is practically too long to be considered viable. Nevertheless, the business end of a 12 gauge is a very intimidating sight to someone intent on bad deeds.
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You may have the wrong shotgun then. I would love to turn this thread into a conversation about the viability of shotguns for home defense, complete with multiple articles from the right guys, like Clint Smith or Travis Pike, to back up my position, but the T-Man dislikes it when I hi-jack his threads for my own selfish personal gain. :cool:
 
Mossberg 930, 18.5" barrel, cylinder choke, 12 ga. Maverick 88, 18.5" barrel, cylinder choke, 20 ga. Both demonstrate results consistent with the video in real life. 12 ga, #00 buck, 20 ga, #4 buck. Both are intended for this type of use (I gather).

For us, the issue isn't really patterning at close range, it's the barriers in our house. Given our primary defense plan involves a tight hallway and staircase, a handgun is a better choice for us.

If I needed to confront an intruder in one of the larger areas of our home, indeed a shotgun would be preferable. Unfortunately, I can't expect an uninvited "guest" to voluntarily agree to limit a potential confrontation to those areas. My XDm .40sw gives me a solid 15 chances to discourage an intruder, the 930 gives me 8. The 88 gives us 6, the Canik my wife has gives her 21.

That aside, an intruder is more likely to be convinced to retreat if she is holding the 930 than her pistol, I will grant you that. Given that in that situation we want the intruder out, rather than shooting them, it would tend to tip the scale toward the shotgun.

As with anything, there isn't a "one size fits all" solution. Each person needs to evaluate their situation and choose accordingly. The primary takeaway for me from the video is to know your weapon and train with it. But that is true for everything we may choose to protect our family with. The time to learn the capabilities of our defensive weapon of choice isn't when a bad guy is in your house.
 
Blackmesa96 said:
Mossberg 930, 18.5" barrel, cylinder choke, 12 ga. Maverick 88, 18.5" barrel, cylinder choke, 20 ga. Both demonstrate results consistent with the video in real life. 12 ga, #00 buck, 20 ga, #4 buck. Both are intended for this type of use (I gather).

For us, the issue isn't really patterning at close range, it's the barriers in our house. Given our primary defense plan involves a tight hallway and staircase, a handgun is a better choice for us.

If I needed to confront an intruder in one of the larger areas of our home, indeed a shotgun would be preferable. Unfortunately, I can't expect an uninvited "guest" to voluntarily agree to limit a potential confrontation to those areas. My XDm .40sw gives me a solid 15 chances to discourage an intruder, the 930 gives me 8. The 88 gives us 6, the Canik my wife has gives her 21.

That aside, an intruder is more likely to be convinced to retreat if she is holding the 930 than her pistol, I will grant you that. Given that in that situation we want the intruder out, rather than shooting them, it would tend to tip the scale toward the shotgun.

As with anything, there isn't a "one size fits all" solution. Each person needs to evaluate their situation and choose accordingly. The primary takeaway for me from the video is to know your weapon and train with it. But that is true for everything we may choose to protect our family with. The time to learn the capabilities of our defensive weapon of choice isn't when a bad guy is in your house.
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Well, I would suggest that if your wife is faced with a home intruder her first order of business ( your's too for that matter) should be to get to the place you can get to quickest which affords the most cover and wait silently for a threat to present itself. If you plan on "Clearing" your house then a handgun very well may be your best option. Hell, even in the aforementioned scenario with cover a handgun may be best for you. As you say, everyone's situation is different. Everyone's level of training is different. I certainly agree that unless you have trained pretty extensively with a shotgun it probably isn't the best option as a HD weapon for most people.


I tried not to get too far into the weeds here Talyn. I didn't bring up the type of circumstances you would have to be involved in to have multiple, armed assailants in your house creeping around corners or the proper way to clear a room with any weapon or the myriad of other factors that generally must be addressed when deciding on a plan for any given home invasion scenario, including back yard, garage, your 30'X80' billiards room, etc....
 
Bassbob said:
Well, I would suggest that if your wife is faced with a home intruder her first order of business ( your's too for that matter) should be to get to the place you can get to quickest which affords the most cover and wait silently for a threat to present itself. If you plan on "Clearing" your house then a handgun very well may be your best option. Hell, even in the aforementioned scenario with cover a handgun may be best for you. As you say, everyone's situation is different. Everyone's level of training is different. I certainly agree that unless you have trained pretty extensively with a shotgun it probably isn't the best option as a HD weapon for most people.


I tried not to get too far into the weeds here Talyn. I didn't bring up the type of circumstances you would have to be involved in to have multiple, armed assailants in your house creeping around corners or the proper way to clear a room with any weapon or the myriad of other factors that generally must be addressed when deciding on a plan for any given home invasion scenario, including back yard, garage, your 30'X80' billiards room, etc....
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That's pretty much the way our situation would unfold given the layout of our house. Fortunately, should I decide to clear our house, that same layout provides me several tactical advantages. But before that happens, an intruder will hear me shout, "Get out of my house! I am armed and I WILL shoot your ass!"
 
Bassbob said:
You may have the wrong shotgun then. I would love to turn this thread into a conversation about the viability of shotguns for home defense, complete with multiple articles from the right guys, like Clint Smith or Travis Pike, to back up my position, but the T-Man dislikes it when I hi-jack his threads for my own selfish personal gain. :cool:
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You have my permission to expand upon the original topic. (y)
 
Well, I'll address just one of the issues to start.

Maneuvering around tight spaces and corners with a shotgun/ weapon retention.

With a handgun we're trained to use Sul when "Slicing the pie" or pretty much anytime extending your weapon to "Fire" position is impractical, impossible or dangerous. There are similar techniques for shotguns. I'm not trying to teach a class or pretend I know any more than anyone else about it, but I highly suggest research and training if a shotgun is your primary HD weapon or even if it's part of your overall security plan. How you carry your shotgun as you do this is important. A barrel poking out around a corner ahead of you when you don't know what is on the other side is a bad time waiting to happen. There are a couple of good ways to mount the gun where the barrel is potentially protruding only slightly further out in front of you than your handgun would be. You need to train to carry and fire your weapon in these positions. Invest in a good sling and learn how to use it. You want a rapid adjust type sling. You need to be able to quickly adjust the range of movement of your weapon while insuring your ability to retain the weapon should someone get their hands on the other end of it.
I highly recommend some training in hand to hand or CQB as well. Martial arts is good, Krav Maga and any number of self defense disciplines or even just learning some basic moves and learning where specifically on the human body are the most vulnerable spots to attack and the most effective at disabling an opponent. Example. You have a shotgun and an opponent in front of you grabs the barrel. You have several choices and you need to pick one quickly. Can you fire the weapon and hit the intruder or does he have the barrel off to the side of him? One thing you can be sure of is that he is going to be trying very hard to not let go of your weapon. This gives you an advantage. First off your weapon is slung so you won't necessarily need to plant your feet solid to retain control, but he will. The foot furthest away from you is very likely to be planted hard. A straight, hard hit directly on the knee with the bottom of your foot is going to snap that leg like a twig. If the groin is unprotected this is also an optimal target. This ain't a fair fight on the school playground. A thumb in the eye, biting the nose off, all these things can be fight stoppers. Your opponent is concentrating on gaining control of your weapon so you can't shoot him and if you did your part, that isn't going to happen. So while he's concentrating on that, YOU concentrate on quickly and seriously injuring him. Training is the key. Find a guy who knows what he's doing and go to work.

I personally like to incorporate a shotgun into my security plan, but it is only one of my primary weapons. Where you are, what's close to you, how far from cover are you, all these things have to be quickly considered. And as we have discussed here many times, the best plan of action is to make the intruder come to you.
 
During protection details in the early 70's I sometimes carried a pump shotgun with pistol grip in the front seat of the limo. I also carried one under a topcoat when standing post. In a sheriff's police academy I attended in the early we were trained that the shotgun should be our primary weapon if there was a potential threat. I cleared many buildings and made a number of arrests with a standard model 870 as my best night friend. When we started a SWAT team in 1980, we at first had no carbines and just a couple rifles for the snipers-the shotgun was it. Eventually the MP5 became our primary long gun but we stayed qualified on the shotguns. We tried a few pistol grip shotguns for clearing buildings but gave up on them because nobody could hit anything with them at more than 7 yards, although they still had uses for breaching and delivering chemical munitions. A standard riot gun is an excellent weapon or clearing in tight spaces with the proper training and technique. I learned, and later taught, that the shotgun is an extraordinarily versatile weapon from 1-100 yards, with the right ammunition at hand. Learning to select load is an important skill. I have seen the effects on miscreants and victims firsthand on several occasions; the shotgun is a fight stopper of the first order. Whenever I am asked for recommendations on a home defense gun, I recommend the shotgun, with the caveat that they take a course on proper employment of the gun. In my view it is hard to beat a shotgun with a weapon mounted light for defending home and hearth.
 
Hayes is right, as usual. I didn't venture into select loading or "Select Slug" because A) I don't want to act like I know anything and I want the rest of you guys to get involved in this conversation. And B) in Hayes' situation, as an LEO clearing unfamiliar buildings and addressing threats outside the confines of your home, this is where load selection becomes very important. Inside your house a slug is most likely not going to be a load you would choose and for us regular civilians, shooting someone with a shotgun outside of your home is probably going to result in a bad time for you. Lawyers, maybe prison.
 
In 31 years now of LE experience using all different weapons, handguns, shotguns and patrol rifles in all kinds of incidents I can honestly say I never used a pistol grip shotgun. I've fired them on the range in controlled environments and that's all I can say about them. I'm sure they have their place like any firearm does. My home defense shotguns are a Remington 870 and Mossberg Retrograde 590 all loaded with 00 buck. Both have sidesaddles and a few slugs in the saddle just in case. All I can say is I train with what I have as much as I can. Let's all pray none of us on here ever, ever have to use any.... Just my two cents worth.
 
Talyn said:
I have one ATF-designated firearm (Shockwave) which is OK with a grip, but not as good as a stocked shotgun.
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The ATF designation ( meaning not technically a shotgun and therefore not subject to the 18" barrel rule) means that firearm can't accept a stock and is not subject to a tax stamp or NFA garbage, correct ?
 
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