Sig P320 vs Glock 45, the LEO and $450,000 to replace the Sigs.

[RickAnderson]

i don't think so, from a financial view point.

if my city and all the local cities (in my state) seize, cars, pick ups, SUV's, whatever else, that saves the cities monies to buy those things that are then used for the detectives or other undercover work.

later on, as those vehicles age, they get auctioned off, which the cities also reap, which at that time frankly, the vehicles are beat to death, and the monies they garner at auction isn't much.

house can be seized as well, if i recall here when drugs are involved, then sold off at auctions.

hey, if the criminals can profit from thier crimes, so can the general public/law enforcement later

The problem is that your property can be seized without any due process of law. The law is literally arguing your property made the offense, that is why they can take it from you, and it is up to you to prove it is innocent, not the state proving you are guilty and seizing the property after due process of law.

People having cashed seized simply because someone is carrying more than $10k in cash, which is suspicious according to he law.

Drug dealers after they are convicted, having cash, cars, homes that were part of their ill gotten gains, I have no problem seizing and the law enforcement using it.

Its the kid that had his car seized because he spent a year fixing up an old beater and let the inspection lapse. The traveling merchant that had $10k seized because he was carrying it as cash for business deals, and its just suspicious to do that. Oh, but they can hire lawyers, file a case against the city in court, wait for your court dates, maybe in a year or years, after spending more than the property is worth in legal fees you'll get your property back, often trashed. When the kid got his car he fixed up back, the engine was blown and interior trashed, what the heck were the cops doing with his car?

Since a lot of cities have gotten bad press for abusing the system, they have pulled back from abusing it, but it should never have happened in the first place.

FPSRussia on youtube, State and Local Authorities started hassling him, apparently for making videos about clowning around with guns on youtube. The ATF kept filing explosives charges against him for shooting tannerite, trying to use a loop hole that he got paid for his videos, so that made him an explosives business using explosives without a license. They finally got him on 1/2 oz of marijuana on distribution because his girlfriend lived with him, he was accused of distributing the drugs to his girlfriend. The case was thrown out of State Court because the state had gone to ridiculous lengths over such a minor crime. So the Feds picked up the case and got him prosecuted in Federal Court. He had $400k of firearms seized for 1/2 oz of Marijuana. And that was a seizure after due process of law.

 

[HansGruber]

i don't think so, from a financial view point.

if my city and all the local cities (in my state) seize, cars, pick ups, SUV's, whatever else, that saves the cities monies to buy those things that are then used for the detectives or other undercover work.

later on, as those vehicles age, they get auctioned off, which the cities also reap, which at that time frankly, the vehicles are beat to death, and the monies they garner at auction isn't much.

house can be seized as well, if i recall here when drugs are involved, then sold off at auctions.

hey, if the criminals can profit from thier crimes, so can the general public/law enforcement later

Except, and again, police can seize your assets without proving they are from illegal activity, and YOU have to prove they are not.

In essence, you are guilty until proven innocent…which, the last time I checked, against everything our legal system stands for.

Asset forfeiture is just another form of blue thuggery.

 

[ECS686]

So you're saying the Military is suffering the same AD incidents as law enforcement, they are just covering it up? Is that your Air Force Experience? Wasn't mine in the Marines, glad I didn't join the Air Force. When the Military discovered the Drop Fire issue, it could be read about in the media, didn't notice any cover up in those incidents.

I never argued the Military had more time carrying chambered rounds than all law enforcement combined, I argued the Military has enough P320's and usage, that you can't ignore and dismiss their experience on statistical sample size, which you seem to be determined to do.

We don't have true data, we have anecdotal evidence of isolated reports and complaints. Milwaukee Police have concluded they would rather have Glocks than the P320, because of incidents and their own armorers assessment of the design. Those incidents and reports are coming from Law Enforcement and Civilians, not the military, that I have seen. It is possible, the Military is reporting it, but the media doesn't consider it sensational enough to report it.

So its either media is reporting on the Military's experience with the P320 or the military insisting on a safety featured added to their version that is making the difference. Or again it could be the incidents are anecdotal and its being sensationalized. But no sooner has one story died down, there is a report of another one.

I also have experienced people claiming Orange Fram Oil filters are just as good as any other filter that costs 3 times more, and all those reports of engine damage are anecdotal and the expert assessments of cardboard end caps don't prove anything....

Rick Anderson Respectfully, Either I didn’t articulate my point enough or You are misunderstanding what I am saying.

As far as any ADs in the AF we didn’t have many ADs but when they did happen 99% of the time happened at issue or turn in in a clearing barrel.

I’m saying the Military won’t have as many AD issues as civilian agencies simply because there are a lot more civilian Officers carrying every day no matter the make of firearm. And since you seem fixated on a SIg 320 even those are carried more by civilian LEO’s than the 140K you quoted in the military so increase the numbers everything goes up. However the Military seems to not report certain things or when they do it gets blown way out of proportion (remember the Berette M9 slide issue? To hear folks talk EVERYONE witnessed a slide separating when in fact it was under 10 guns and all in the Department of the Navy not an epidemic when you have 300,000 M9’s)

Bottom line the Sig 320’s are safe and the Military version is probably safer with the Manual Safety. I also spent time (about 17 years) as a retired former FLETC certified Instructor I saw the SIg 320 come into the field with some Agencies and saw all the feedback. There was no epidemic of ADa and of the couple few that happened 99.9% were user error period. And using an improper holster is human error

So that said I’m not getting what you have an issue with. Not having numbers of any issue the Military might have or the 320 it’s self!

 

[Wannabewoodsman]

hey, if the criminals can profit from thier crimes, so can the general public/law enforcement later

How does the general public benefit from law enforcement stealing things such as money from innocent people who only have to be "suspected" of a crime? There's no chain of custody for those assets after they've been confiscated.

It may have started off all well and good but now it's in many cases just piracy. The privateers are the law enforcement and the one issuing the privateer's license is Uncle Sam.

 

[Old_Me]

hey, if the criminals can profit from thier crimes, so can the general public/law enforcement later

The problem is that your property can be seized without any due process of law. The law is literally arguing your property made the offense, that is why they can take it from you, and it is up to you to prove it is innocent, not the state proving you are guilty and seizing the property after due process of law.

People having cashed seized simply because someone is carrying more than $10k in cash, which is suspicious according to he law.

Drug dealers after they are convicted, having cash, cars, homes that were part of their ill gotten gains, I have no problem seizing and the law enforcement using it.

Its the kid that had his car seized because he spent a year fixing up an old beater and let the inspection lapse. The traveling merchant that had $10k seized because he was carrying it as cash for business deals, and its just suspicious to do that. Oh, but they can hire lawyers, file a case against the city in court, wait for your court dates, maybe in a year or years, after spending more than the property is worth in legal fees you'll get your property back, often trashed. When the kid got his car he fixed up back, the engine was blown and interior trashed, what the heck were the cops doing with his car?

Since a lot of cities have gotten bad press for abusing the system, they have pulled back from abusing it, but it should never have happened in the first place.

FPSRussia on youtube, State and Local Authorities started hassling him, apparently for making videos about clowning around with guns on youtube. The ATF kept filing explosives charges against him for shooting tannerite, trying to use a loop hole that he got paid for his videos, so that made him an explosives business using explosives without a license. They finally got him on 1/2 oz of marijuana on distribution because his girlfriend lived with him, he was accused of distributing the drugs to his girlfriend. The case was thrown out of State Court because the state had gone to ridiculous lengths over such a minor crime. So the Feds picked up the case and got him prosecuted in Federal Court. He had $400k of firearms seized for 1/2 oz of Marijuana. And that was a seizure after due process of law.

Except, and again, police can seize your assets without proving they are from illegal activity, and YOU have to prove they are not.

In essence, you are guilty until proven innocent…which, the last time I checked, against everything our legal system stands for.

Asset forfeiture is just another form of blue thuggery.

How does the general public benefit from law enforcement stealing things such as money from innocent people who only have to be "suspected" of a crime? There's no chain of custody for those assets after they've been confiscated.

It may have started off all well and good but now it's in many cases just piracy. The privateers are the law enforcement and the one issuing the privateer's license is Uncle Sam.

i guess you all didn't read my last line...???

 

[Wannabewoodsman]

i guess you all didn't read my last line...???

We did.. the point is civil asset forfeiture DOESN'T require a crime which is why I think it's evil

 

[HansGruber]

i guess you all didn't read my last line...???

What part of “police are seizing assets that AREN’T connected to criminal activity” is unclear to you?

 

[Old_Me]

What part of “police are seizing assets that AREN’T connected to criminal activity” is unclear to you?

first of all, the thread was derailed by @Wannabewoodsman at posting # 5......

then the next posting, #6 by @KillerFord1977 , went on to say about criminal acts, and i was following that lead.

if people would STOP derailing threads, and start THIER OWN, this nonsense would not happen of "some people" not READING the responses PROPERLY.

i stand by what i said..REGARDING CRIMINALS.....

 

[Annihilator]

If you remember, when the military adopted the Beretta 92, there were some issue of the slide coming apart on some mid to high round count, Beretta fixed this issue by putting in a slide retention upgrade on the new Beretta’s hence the designation 92FS, can’t remember the military designation for the upgrade.

 

[RickAnderson]

Bottom line the Sig 320’s are safe and the Military version is probably safer with the Manual Safety.

You do understand this started as claims the pistol fired without pulling the trigger? And now is on to confirmed firing without pulling the trigger with witnesses and now even official confirmation with investigations, of firing without pulling the trigger?

My point was, there are not these reports about errant discharges with the Military P320's, and it very well could be because they have a Manual Safety, while the others do not. (Perhaps the media is ignoring the military reports, while reporting the LE and Civilian reports, as I noted before, the media has reported the drop fire issues and even some of the firing pin safety block issues the military is having with the P320).

I totally disagree the Sig P320 is safe, continuing reports of confirmed incidents of the pistol firing without the trigger being pulled, doesn't make it a safe weapon with rationalizing the incidents away as the sample size is so large, its in the noise of human error accidents. Nor does dismissing a control sample, perhaps the largest single agency, as being to small a sample because all the others combined are larger than the largest single sample. Do I know it is unsafe, no I don't, I see enough to reserve judgement on it being safe.

While its anecdotal, those anecdotal incidents keep coming and coming about the a pistol firing without pulling the trigger, that may be a design problem with the pistol.

A fanboy is going to rationalize away the reports and continue to insist there is nothing wrong.
A hater is going to insist the pistol is junk, this all the proof they need.

I am saying I see a problem, we don't know everything yet, but to much evidence is becoming apparent there at least "may" be a problem, if not an actual problem.

 

[RickAnderson]

If you remember, when the military adopted the Beretta 92, there were some issue of the slide coming apart on some mid to high round count, Beretta fixed this issue by putting in a slide retention upgrade on the new Beretta’s hence the designation 92FS, can’t remember the military designation for the upgrade.

I don't remember any M9's firing without pulling the trigger.
The Military M17/M18, based on the P320, had a drop fire issue that has been fixed, and firing pin block failure at high round counts, which might just be something handled by an inspection and repair cycle. I have not seen any reports of M17/M18 firing without pulling the trigger, but I don't know that for a fact, I just don't see reporting on it, while every week there seems to be a new report of the P320 firing without pulling trigger every week.
Even the 1911 had a drop fire issue they fixed.

 

[RickAnderson]

I just field stripped my M18 (civilian version, not a decommissioned, there are differences, but none consequential to the actual operation that I am aware of) and investigated the action.

With Safety OFF, the sear can pushed down and the trigger will pull and the arm to depress the firing pin block moves up, far enough it would clearly release the striker. And it wasn't a lot of force required to push down the sear, enough that it would seam it take pretty sharp bump to move it on its own. With the Safety ON, the sear is blocked and can not move down even with a lot of force, the trigger cannot be pulled either.

The Milwaukee Police said their Armorers found the Sear could "Walk".... sounds like either sear with defects in them (the also said the MIM parts didn't have consistent surfaces) or the pressure on the sear from the striker, might hold the sear down as it moves a little from bumps and doesn't climb back up. If the sear angles were off, so the force on the sear would also push it down, without a manual safety, there is nothing to stop the sear from moving downward.

Also keep in mind, Sig sold M17 and M18 swap kits, for regular P320's, so it is possible to find a Sig P320 that looks just like the M17/M18, even has the same slide with M17/M18 on it and not have a manual safety.

 

[Annihilator]

I don't remember any M9's firing without pulling the trigger.
The Military M17/M18, based on the P320, had a drop fire issue that has been fixed, and firing pin block failure at high round counts, which might just be something handled by an inspection and repair cycle. I have not seen any reports of M17/M18 firing without pulling the trigger, but I don't know that for a fact, I just don't see reporting on it, while every week there seems to be a new report of the P320 firing without pulling trigger every week.
Even the 1911 had a drop fire issue they fixed.

I wasn't talking about the Beretta firing with out pulling the trigger, I was just saying all guns, no matter the manufacturer has issues, the Beretta's had the slide breaking and the rear of the slide was flying off the gun, until Beretta fixed this issue the the 92 FS....was just saying

 

[RickAnderson]

I wasn't talking about the Beretta firing with out pulling the trigger, I was just saying all guns, no matter the manufacturer has issues, the Beretta's had the slide breaking and the rear of the slide was flying off the gun, until Beretta fixed this issue the the 92 FS....was just saying

But that was my point, having to need a fix or repair for breakage or weak factors is one thing, the military is used to that and works with the contractor to correct it. Pistol firing unintended without touching the trigger, is another.

So that was what I have been getting at the entire thread, if it turns out the P320 has a design flaw that can allow the pistol fire without touching the trigger, that is different than growing pains with pistols that needs fixes or improvements or AD's from poor training or unfamiliar personnel from the lack of safety features. You can still do everything right and the pistol might shoot while it is sitting in the holster.

And that is if it is all the claims and reports are true, I don't know that for a fact, but each subsequent report is more firm evidence than the one before it and they just keep coming.

 

[Bassbob]

Except the cops can seize assets that are only suspected to be gotten from criminal activity, and it’s up to the person they are seized from to prove otherwise.

Basically, you have to prove your innocence…which is anathema to our justice system.

It’s quite a pile of steaming bovine feces, and often abused by law enforcement agencies.

I personally know a couple who had 10k cash relieved from them by Oklahoma cops. They were moving and had a U Haul with all their possessions in it. They never got it back.

 

[RickAnderson]

This just in, Sig has won the first lawsuit on the P320. A guy alone with no witness's claimed his P320 in a P250 holster (theP250 is darn close to the P320, so its not unreasonable to use that holster) went off as he took his holster off and shot him in the thigh. It may simple be it was his word against Sig's, as too why Sig was found not liable.

Like I've said, the subsequent incidents are stacking up and sound more credible, so we'll see if Sig continues to win the lawsuits or starts losing them.

I saw a source claim there has been 50 incidents so far, that its claimed the pistol fired without touching the trigger.

 

[Bassbob]

This just in, Sig has won the first lawsuit on the P320. A guy alone with no witness's claimed his P320 in a P250 holster (theP250 is darn close to the P320, so its not unreasonable to use that holster) went off as he took his holster off and shot him in the thigh. It may simple be it was his word against Sig's, as too why Sig was found not liable.

Like I've said, the subsequent incidents are stacking up and sound more credible, so we'll see if Sig continues to win the lawsuits or starts losing them.

I saw a source claim there has been 50 incidents so far, that its claimed the pistol fired without touching the trigger.

50 incidents and yet not a single one of them provable. And no one has been able to recreate the phenomenon of the gun firing by itself. Ever. Ridiculous.

 

[RickAnderson]

50 incidents and yet not a single one of them provable. And no one has been able to recreate the phenomenon of the gun firing by itself. Ever. Ridiculous.

What do you consider "Provable"?

I understand doubting a single person's account with no witnesses.
But you have incidents on film and with multiple witness's, how is that not provable?

50 incidents, means 50 incidents, that is very small compared to the hundreds of thousands of P320's sold. But that is many times more than one or two, that is just the word of the owner that has a motive lie...

Remember it took a while to discover the drop fire issue despite testing for exactly that and never finding it, only discover a year later, it will drop fire.... ...so recreating the phenomenon can be difficult and take time.... ...I think you'll find more than a few car owners fuming that they have intermittent recurring problem and every time they bring it in for repair under warranty, the Dealership does noting and says they cannot duplicate the problem....

And I've noticed this trend of doubting every account, even those on video and with multiple eye witness's but then accepts Sigs account they can not duplicate it on face value. (and I mean lots of folks on the thread doing this, not just you bassbob)... ...one or two people with no witnesses I can see dismissing it, I think folks are stretching to dismiss 50 that included credible accounts with witnesses and/or video.

We are talking about a firearm here, not plastic trinkets. There are 315,000 airline flights a week in the U.S., if 50 of them a week crashed, would we really be talking about how they are not provable and the airlines said they could not duplicate it, therefore there isn't a problem.

I'd agree, 50 out of 100's of thousands it premature to declare we know there is a real problem and a design flaw. But I do not agree, its only 50 out of 100's of thousands we can declare there is no problem, nothing to see here, there can't possibly be a design flaw.

50 incidents for a firearm, that is enough it needs to be examined and watched, Sig should be continuing to try to replicate the problem and analyze their design for a flaw they may have missed....

 

[Bassbob]

What do you consider "Provable"?

I understand doubting a single person's account with no witnesses.
But you have incidents on film and with multiple witness's, how is that not provable?

50 incidents, means 50 incidents, that is very small compared to the hundreds of thousands of P320's sold. But that is many times more than one or two, that is just the word of the owner that has a motive lie...

Remember it took a while to discover the drop fire issue despite testing for exactly that and never finding it, only discover a year later, it will drop fire.... ...so recreating the phenomenon can be difficult and take time.... ...I think you'll find more than a few car owners fuming that they have intermittent recurring problem and every time they bring it in for repair under warranty, the Dealership does noting and says they cannot duplicate the problem....

And I've noticed this trend of doubting every account, even those on video and with multiple eye witness's but then accepts Sigs account they can not duplicate it on face value. (and I mean lots of folks on the thread doing this, not just you bassbob)... ...one or two people with no witnesses I can see dismissing it, I think folks are stretching to dismiss 50 that included credible accounts with witnesses and/or video.

We are talking about a firearm here, not plastic trinkets. There are 315,000 airline flights a week in the U.S., if 50 of them a week crashed, would we really be talking about how they are not provable and the airlines said they could not duplicate it, therefore there isn't a problem.

I'd agree, 50 out of 100's of thousands it premature to declare we know there is a real problem and a design flaw. But I do not agree, its only 50 out of 100's of thousands we can declare there is no problem, nothing to see here, there can't possibly be a design flaw.

50 incidents for a firearm, that is enough it needs to be examined and watched, Sig should be continuing to try to replicate the problem and analyze their design for a flaw they may have missed....

Incidents on film? There is film of one of these guns going off by itself? Got a link ?

Barring some sort of actual evidence that any of these guns are capable of firing on their own, it's UNPROVABLE. And most likely it is frivolous BS brought on by people who failed to properly train themselves how to maintain and manipulate striker fired guns, Most of them female cops who put their guns in their purse with a bunch of other crap.


I'll point out that I don't now and have never owned a Sig and really have no plans to in the immediate future ( The Legions do look nice though). So if you can link me to a video of one of them going off by itself I will promptly change my opinion. Until then I am going to chalk it up to affirmative action dumbing down the gene pool of the nation's police forces by hiring people that frankly have no business being in law enforcement.

 

[ECS686]

What do you consider "Provable"?

I understand doubting a single person's account with no witnesses.
But you have incidents on film and with multiple witness's, how is that not provable?

50 incidents, means 50 incidents, that is very small compared to the hundreds of thousands of P320's sold. But that is many times more than one or two, that is just the word of the owner that has a motive lie...

Remember it took a while to discover the drop fire issue despite testing for exactly that and never finding it, only discover a year later, it will drop fire.... ...so recreating the phenomenon can be difficult and take time.... ...I think you'll find more than a few car owners fuming that they have intermittent recurring problem and every time they bring it in for repair under warranty, the Dealership does noting and says they cannot duplicate the problem....

And I've noticed this trend of doubting every account, even those on video and with multiple eye witness's but then accepts Sigs account they can not duplicate it on face value. (and I mean lots of folks on the thread doing this, not just you bassbob)... ...one or two people with no witnesses I can see dismissing it, I think folks are stretching to dismiss 50 that included credible accounts with witnesses and/or video.

We are talking about a firearm here, not plastic trinkets. There are 315,000 airline flights a week in the U.S., if 50 of them a week crashed, would we really be talking about how they are not provable and the airlines said they could not duplicate it, therefore there isn't a problem.

I'd agree, 50 out of 100's of thousands it premature to declare we know there is a real problem and a design flaw. But I do not agree, its only 50 out of 100's of thousands we can declare there is no problem, nothing to see here, there can't possibly be a design flaw.

50 incidents for a firearm, that is enough it needs to be examined and watched, Sig should be continuing to try to replicate the problem and analyze their design for a flaw they may have missed....

Rick Again I say this Respectfully. We can disagree (and I am in no way a SIg fan) You seem to be reading reported events and basing your view in what you read. I am basing my view point with what I saw and experienced. It’s all history of these things and usually the way it works out.

Some of us have been involved In LE/Military training (as in running actual training classes. Teaching at FLETC and going to such schools as Dave Spaulding Lee Weems and Gunsite) since the revolver days and have seen the M9 exaggerated claims. The “Glock Leg Glocks are in safe claims” And there were more than 50 (your numbe you threw out there As far as a Sig 320) Glock ADs that also was discovered to be a training scar smashing a gun with a 5 pound trigger in a holster with 20 pounds of force equals a bad day.

There was an issue crop up the last few years with some AD’s that when investigated was traced to folks running non Weapons Mounted Light guns in holsters for WML’s. . When that fact came out the reporting went by the way side.

There was a few cases in LA and Portland where Glocks failed to fire a couple times in crucial incidents. It was traced back to coppers putting too much lube or specifically getting it in the debris channel thus creating a hydraulic break for the striker thus not hitting the primer.

And I’ll give you there are a few examples of of a firearm with faults like the FN FNS would actually discharge so FN discontinued it and replaced with the 509 (AZ DPS and Baltimore PD are examples with legitimate issues)

Or the Remington 700 safety issue where it fired when the safety lever was moved. Couple deaths with that one.

What I have seen with the Sig 320 is the ones making the news had improper holsters (and running a WML holster with no WML on the gun is the users fault)

I say that from what I have Experienced in my own Classes, running agency ranges or going to national classes with a lot of Sig 320’s.

So if you have any experience with actually witnessing (not reading about) any such issue with a firearm defect (with stock OEM parts and no YouTube gunsmithing) in general or with a Sig 320 Okease share what you actually saw or a link to an AAR.