So I ordered some Night Fision suppressor height sights Monday because I got an email for a discount and used it even though at that time I had no Glock to put them on until I bought a Glock 17 Gen 3 from Academy Sports yesterday evening. Anyways, I’m not buying and a threaded barrel, a can, nor get the slide milled for a red dot anytime soon, however the sights are on the way and I’m curious to know how they’d look on my 17. I guess the question I want to ask is, has anyone used higher sights on their handguns just cause? What can I expect the poa/poi to be? Higher? I know that question may sound stupid but I’ve been known to shoot high and low with standard height sights.
Suppressor Height Sights
- Thread starter Th@tGuy
- Start date
Keystone19250
SAINT
My take on your question is no matter what sights you use your POI will come with training and practice.
Understandable, I just wanted to know if they will cause any significant changes in shooting with them on. Guess I'll just install them when they get here Saturday and go shooting on the family property Sunday before the game starts.
Jfal
Professional
We could broach the concept of AR sights (that are significantly ABOVE the barrel axis), and how a 25 meter zero is the same as a 300 meter zero (for a military spec 5.56 round), or 50 meter zero is then also zeroed at 200 meters (all other factors being equal). Both due to bullet trajectory arc...but that gets pretty far into the weeds...I know I failed to convince a young 18-year-old of this concept in a discussion (he knows everything), don't think I'd do any better in this kind of forum (or at least I don't have the energy to do that here, and none of you want to read my ramblings).
I'm not 18 nor do I think I know everything so open to hear more of what your experience is on this subject matter.
Jfal
Professional
In an attempt at being succinct, the point of aim (POA) is a straight line down your sights or through your optic, lined up on your target. The barrel on the AR is about 2" lower than the sights. Thus, if the sights and barrel are horizontally parallel, your point of impact (POI) will be 2" below your point of aim at close range. Zeroing the firearm makes the POA and POI the same. In order to do this, the barrel is pointed upward (by adjusting the sights) at the POA slightly so the bullet hits the POA at the desired distance. With a 5.56Nato round, when the POA/POI match at 25 meters, that round's ballistics make the bullet rising to meet the POA at 25 meters....it continues upward and will hit an inch above the target point at 50 meters, 2" high at 100 meters, then starts dropping back to the same height at about 300 meters. This has been proven at these distances (25/300 zero) with Nato ammo for decades, with the GI spec sights on an AR rifle (or M16). The above are estimates for the 50 and 100 meters POI's, but I've heard they are close.
The higher above the barrel your sights reside, the more dramatic this bullet flight characteristic becomes. you could mount sights 3" above your pistol barrel and zero it properly at 7 yards, 15 yards, 25 meters, or any distance...the bullet will be climbing when it hits your first zero point. It continues climbing until gravity pulls it back down (as it zips down range), and eventually comes back to the same height at some point.
I would guess that multiple-zero distance(s) for suppressor-elevated sights might make that double-zero something like 25 meters and 200 meters with a 9mm, but that is an absolute guess...Ive never tested it, nor have I seen instructional videos/information...it might be out there. Kind of irrelevant since no one shoots a 9mm 200 meters and expects to hit anything...but it fascinated the hell out of me when I learned about the physics of this phenomena (non?).
Maybe that wasn't very succinct, my apologies. I said I wasn't going to ramble and I did it anyway....tried to notate estimations in the above for those who might know exact ballistics and see that I might be off a tad...
The higher above the barrel your sights reside, the more dramatic this bullet flight characteristic becomes. you could mount sights 3" above your pistol barrel and zero it properly at 7 yards, 15 yards, 25 meters, or any distance...the bullet will be climbing when it hits your first zero point. It continues climbing until gravity pulls it back down (as it zips down range), and eventually comes back to the same height at some point.
I would guess that multiple-zero distance(s) for suppressor-elevated sights might make that double-zero something like 25 meters and 200 meters with a 9mm, but that is an absolute guess...Ive never tested it, nor have I seen instructional videos/information...it might be out there. Kind of irrelevant since no one shoots a 9mm 200 meters and expects to hit anything...but it fascinated the hell out of me when I learned about the physics of this phenomena (non?).
Maybe that wasn't very succinct, my apologies. I said I wasn't going to ramble and I did it anyway....tried to notate estimations in the above for those who might know exact ballistics and see that I might be off a tad...
I appreciate that knowledge you shared. I guess it's only one way to find out and that is to give it a go, now I'm anxious to get the sights on. Saturday can't come fast enough.
I thought about that too but you can also say having a red dot mounted on your pistol will also snag. They do make holsters that accommodate suppressor sights, ordered one yesterday from 1791 Gunleather, they now make kydex holsters that look as great as their leather ones. Like I said I'll just have to try them and see, if they work then I'll keep them installed, I'll try different draw positions and situations to see if they hang-up or snag on anything as well.
Jfal
Professional
If you really want to learn more about zeroing...check youtube on 25/300 zero...there are several ex-military dudes who explain this process with whiteboards that might be more illustrative. Seeing the sight path and the bullet trajectory drawn out makes more sense than reading my description.
Thanks, I've been watching vids since last night, woke up around 6:30 this morning and have been watching more.
The bullet doesn't "rise" - it's falling as soon as it exits the barrel. It's the angular difference between the sight axis and the bore axis that, depending on the zero, makes the bullet cross the sight axis twice:
A word of caution -
The two zeros should be verified independently, as depending on factors such as barrel length, bullet weight (length), load, etc., that far zero can and will vary, sometimes drastically. What this means in the real-world is that we can only say that you're "zeroed" for the distance at which we actually zero: everything else is a guess, until we pull down some data with actual rounds downrange.
-----
In terms of your new suppressor-height sights on your handgun, @djalford1985 , you'll really want to get out there and check that initial POA/POI for yourself, and verify zero.
Night Fission's website only states that their standard sights will regulate to what the handgun manufacturer regulates to. For the XDm, for example, we see the following:
^ Image taken from XDMAN.com 's gracious hosting of the current and past XD Owners Manuals.
Note that the distance cited is 25 yards - but it doesn't mention bullet weight (length) or load specifics. This is because for the vast majority of shooters who would use this particular handgun, pulling a sub-3-inch group (i.e. tight enough to be able to be zero'ed from) at that distance is going to be much more about shooter skill than it is about the cartridge's nuances.
This is ostensibly why Dawson Precision (more in a minute) asks shooters to zero at the 20 yard line...because most shooters fall apart rather fast as they start to really push yardage.[ Towards this, modern defensive/duty-caliber handguns -from full-size to sub-compacts- zero'ed at the 25 will be able to engage "POA/POI" easily from 3 (think the late TLG's version of Dot Torture) to 100 yards (not uncommonly pushed yardage in "walk-back" drills or contests). ]
Similarly, you'll notice that instead of just using language, SA's technical writers shows a visual. This is important because language often gets in our way when we talk about the zero:
* Image stolen from all over the Interwebz.
^ ....in which both "Sight Image 1" and "Sight Image 2" are both often referred to by various shooters as "6-o'clock hold," and both "Sight Image 2" and "Sight Image 3" could be called "POA/POI." Because of the imprecision (sorry, no pun intended!
) of language, a picture here literally says a thousand words, and tends to get folks' thinking aligned much more quickly.So with Night Fission saying that their standard OE-replacement sights will regulate as the gun's manufacturer intended, what they mean is just that: to look at how your handgun's maker intended things to be, with their factory setup.
They don't say anything about their suppressor-height sights, and I don't know why, However, as a "matched set," you really shouldn't have to worry much about the sights impacting drastically low or drastically high, understanding that with most modern duty/defensive handguns that the sights are usually regulated to either "Sight Image 2" or "Sight Image 3," at the 25 yard line, with typical commercial range and premium (i.e. defensive/duty) cartridges.
Usually, a drastic POA/POI shift comes from "mixing-and-matching" sight sets, either from different manufacturers or from within that manufacturer's product line's options.
Dawson Precision, whose sights are very highly regarded in the handgun world, gives good insight into this matter with their "Perfect Impact Policy" -
....and their online, interactive, sight height calculator:
Sight Calculator
dawsonprecision.com
As you see from the Dawson sight height calculator, typically, altering sight body dimensions to raise/lower to either correct or refine POA/POI is done by changing the height ratio between the front post and the rear notches. Here's another, possibly more intuitive view of what's going on within the calculator -
* Image taken from 1911Addicts, but it's again all over the Errornets!
And the question becomes even more muddled when folks aim by "aligning the dots," versus the actual sight bodies:
* Picture taken from ARFCOM thread - https://www.ar15.com/forums/Handgun...nt-sights/13-186208/?page=1&anc=bottom#bottom
^ Here, note the discrepancy between sight blade alignment and dot alignment.
----
All of this, really, is just to say that what you posted earlier about getting out and putting rounds downrange is truly what you'll both want to do and have to do.
Google-Fu shows that rounds impacting low (at 7 yards and closer) by 1.5 to 2-inches is a not uncommon complaint from shooters who recently installed suppressor height sights. However, it's almost never clear if this is just that they are not taking into account the differences in terms of how their new aftermarket sights are regulated versus their factory setup, or if they actually had to pursue corrections/remediation with the aftermarket sight manufacturer.
I really appreciate that breakdown.The bullet doesn't "rise" - it's falling as soon as it exits the barrel. It's the angular difference between the sight axis and the bore axis that, depending on the zero, makes the bullet cross the sight axis twice:
View attachment 24725
A word of caution -
The two zeros should be verified independently, as depending on factors such as barrel length, bullet weight (length), load, etc., that far zero can and will vary, sometimes drastically. What this means in the real-world is that we can only say that you're "zeroed" for the distance at which we actually zero: everything else is a guess, until we pull down some data with actual rounds downrange.
-----
In terms of your new suppressor-height sights on your handgun, @djalford1985 , you'll really want to get out there and check that initial POA/POI for yourself, and verify zero.
Night Fission's website only states that their standard sights will regulate to what the handgun manufacturer regulates to. For the XDm, for example, we see the following:
View attachment 24726
^ Image taken from XDMAN.com 's gracious hosting of the current and past XD Owners Manuals.
Note that the distance cited is 25 yards - but it doesn't mention bullet weight (length) or load specifics. This is because for the vast majority of shooters who would use this particular handgun, pulling a sub-3-inch group (i.e. tight enough to be able to be zero'ed from) at that distance is going to be much more about shooter skill than it is about the cartridge's nuances.
[ Towards this, modern defensive/duty-caliber handguns -from full-size to sub-compacts- zero'ed at the 25 will be able to engage "POA/POI" easily from 3 (think the late TLG's version of Dot Torture) to 100 yards (not uncommonly pushed yardage in "walk-back" drills or contests). ]
Similarly, you'll notice that instead of just using language, SA's technical writers shows a visual. This is important because language often gets in our way when we talk about the zero:
View attachment 24727
* Image stolen from all over the Interwebz.
^ ....in which both "Sight Image 1" and "Sight Image 2" are both often referred to by various shooters as "6-o'clock hold," and both "Sight Image 2" and "Sight Image 3" could be called "POA/POI." Because of the imprecision (sorry, no pun intended!
So with Night Fission saying that their standard OE-replacement sights will regulate as the gun's manufacturer intended, what they mean is just that: to look at how your handgun's maker intended things to be, with their factory setup.
They don't say anything about their suppressor-height sights, and I don't know why, However, as a "matched set," you really shouldn't have to worry much about the sights impacting drastically low or drastically high, understanding that with most modern duty/defensive handguns that the sights are usually regulated to either "Sight Image 2" or "Sight Image 3," at the 25 yard line, with typical commercial range and premium (i.e. defensive/duty) cartridges.
Usually, a drastic POA/POI shift comes from "mixing-and-matching" sight sets, either from different manufacturers or from within that manufacturer's product line's options.
Dawson Precision, whose sights are very highly regarded in the handgun world, gives good insight into this matter with their "Perfect Impact Policy" -
....and their online, interactive, sight height calculator:
Sight Calculator
As you see from the Dawson sight height calculator, typically, altering sight body dimensions to raise/lower to either correct or refine POA/POI is done by changing the height ratio between the front post and the rear notches. Here's another, possibly more intuitive view of what's going on within the calculator -
View attachment 24728
* Image taken from 1911Addicts, but it's again all over the Errornets!
And the question becomes even more muddled when folks aim by "aligning the dots," versus the actual sight bodies:
View attachment 24729
* Picture taken from ARFCOM thread - https://www.ar15.com/forums/Handgun...nt-sights/13-186208/?page=1&anc=bottom#bottom
^ Here, note the discrepancy between sight blade alignment and dot alignment.
----
All of this, really, is just to say that what you posted earlier about getting out and putting rounds downrange is truly what you'll both want to do and have to do.
Google-Fu shows that rounds impacting low (at 7 yards and closer) by 1.5 to 2-inches is a not uncommon complaint from shooters who recently installed suppressor height sights. However, it's almost never clear if this is just that they are not taking into account the differences in terms of how their new aftermarket sights are regulated versus their factory setup, or if they actually had to pursue corrections/remediation with the aftermarket sight manufacturer.
Jfal
Professional
TSI, you are absolutely correct in saying a bullet does not rise aerodynamically. However, when the barrel is angled upward, that bullet rises to its apogee, then starts falling back. I was being intentionally literal for the point of the description. Point well corrected. One might describe a bullet shot from a firearm and compare to one dropped simultaneously with the firing. If the barrel is parallel to the ground at firing, the fired bullet and the one dropped from your hand (from the same height) should hit the ground at the same time...
A fantastic real-life illustration of bullet trajectories is Hickok45 shooting a .45 auto at his gong at 80 yards, with John (his son) filming and zooming in on the gong. You can see the bullet arcing to the gong before hitting. It is quite striking how sharply the bullet falls from its trajectory. In my example above, I believe I over-estimated the 9mm arc mentioned. It might hit zero at 25 meters (with elevated sights) and re-cross the POA plane at 75-100 yards. Those slow bullets drop fast!
A fantastic real-life illustration of bullet trajectories is Hickok45 shooting a .45 auto at his gong at 80 yards, with John (his son) filming and zooming in on the gong. You can see the bullet arcing to the gong before hitting. It is quite striking how sharply the bullet falls from its trajectory. In my example above, I believe I over-estimated the 9mm arc mentioned. It might hit zero at 25 meters (with elevated sights) and re-cross the POA plane at 75-100 yards. Those slow bullets drop fast!
^ Ah, I see what you mean.
I just didn't want less sophisticated readers to imagine that the bullet is somehow defying gravity after it leaves the barrel.
As a youngster, I definitely did imagine that somehow the spin imparted to the bullet made it behave like a football that's been lobbed in the air in a perfect spiral.
I am as of the moment not yet engaged in precision marksmanship, either in the handgun or long-gun context. I haven't yet had the time to try the former (although I really would like to, and imagine that the discipline will translate well to more dynamic handgun employment), and I've convinced myself that I can't afford the latter.
I'm currently a plank owner at a local private range that affords the ability to stretch to 1300 yards, but so far, I've only really worked the 400-and-in.
I do try to expand my handgun skills by taking shots out to the 50 to 100 yard line (the latter of which I'm still often humbled by, when I get lax in my practice ), looking to distance as a way to help me refine my skills. Besides, it's just fun to actually have that "smaller target" actually be small because it's far away.
And yes, that's my 4.5-inch XDm9 that's on my hip. And yes, my buddy and I did get our fill of shooting our steel (we each bought a few of the Tac Strike Quarter-Scales, way back when they were the "in" targets - they've held up amazingly well over the years, despite our abuse of them) with our handguns (his is a typical G19-based "Roland Special") at the 100 yard line. As a matter of fact, we played at the 100 for so long that when we moved up to the 50, we were having such an easy time ringing that steel that we thought we were much closer.
I just didn't want less sophisticated readers to imagine that the bullet is somehow defying gravity after it leaves the barrel.
As a youngster, I definitely did imagine that somehow the spin imparted to the bullet made it behave like a football that's been lobbed in the air in a perfect spiral.
I am as of the moment not yet engaged in precision marksmanship, either in the handgun or long-gun context. I haven't yet had the time to try the former (although I really would like to, and imagine that the discipline will translate well to more dynamic handgun employment), and I've convinced myself that I can't afford the latter.
I'm currently a plank owner at a local private range that affords the ability to stretch to 1300 yards, but so far, I've only really worked the 400-and-in.
I do try to expand my handgun skills by taking shots out to the 50 to 100 yard line (the latter of which I'm still often humbled by, when I get lax in my practice
), looking to distance as a way to help me refine my skills. Besides, it's just fun to actually have that "smaller target" actually be small because it's far away. And yes, that's my 4.5-inch XDm9 that's on my hip. And yes, my buddy and I did get our fill of shooting our steel (we each bought a few of the Tac Strike Quarter-Scales, way back when they were the "in" targets - they've held up amazingly well over the years, despite our abuse of them) with our handguns (his is a typical G19-based "Roland Special") at the 100 yard line. As a matter of fact, we played at the 100 for so long that when we moved up to the 50, we were having such an easy time ringing that steel that we thought we were much closer.