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The Rationale for Defensive Hollow Points

We use ARX and Novx +P rounds in our CCW and home defense pistols.
I made this decision based on their superior wound channel and their “clothing ‘barrier blind’ “ characteristics. They also disintegrate after striking solid barriers.
Am I incorrect in my assumption?
 
Mike H. said:
Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “The Rationale for Defensive Hollow Points” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/the-rationale-for-defensive-hollow-points/.

Click to expand...
History is replete with such actions. Elected officials attempting to fix a perceived issue and not knowing the rational behind such activities. They approach it to gather a power base, and or make headlines. To many times this has been the case over the years in many subject areas. In this case, firearms and their components. In this specific case as the article lists is the specific type of ammo untilized. COP KILLERS, Dum Dum rounds were all terms used. Historically, 38 Special, 357 and similar rounds used by LE and others were all designed in the 17th and 18th century. Improvement were made. In the 1960-70's hollowpoint ammo was introduced. Again historically, there have documented cases where LE fire their service firearm and while the round hit the intented target, it past through and struck another . In some of the same cases the individual continued to move as the energy delivered did not fully stop the threat. So more improvement were made. There are real diferences in HP , JHP SJHP and similar round vs flat nose rounds and round that were alterred ( cut the top of th round with a "X" to make the round fragment. HP , JHP ans similar do not fragment is such a manner,, they mushroom. The point is to deliver as much energy to the target with passing through the target and injuring others near by or in the general path of the bullet.


In todays world individual who carry firearms need to know exactly why they use a specfic round or type of ammo instead of I read on line from a friend and thay is what he recommended. Good Article.
 
bisonwings said:
We use ARX and Novx +P rounds in our CCW and home defense pistols.
I made this decision based on their superior wound channel and their “clothing ‘barrier blind’ “ characteristics. They also disintegrate after striking solid barriers.
Am I incorrect in my assumption?
Click to expand...
That’s not been my experience with them.

First off, I don’t buy their “magic cavitation wave” claims…it’s snake oil.

Second, when a buddy experimented with them in .380, they blew through a 1gal water jug, through 2 pieces of drywall, and buried itself over a foot in hard packed dirt.

Don’t believe manufacturers claims.

Look at what professionals are using.
 
Your reasons for use of jhp ammo are all valid. If I have to pull my weapon and aim it at someone who is a legitimate threat, I intend to stop that person who is a threat to me or those around me. I do not intend to harm anyone else. A critical thinker would understand and agree with your points.
 
Dear Mr. Ayoob,
As usual, I found your article on the Rationale of Defense Hollow Points to be spot on and very relevant to our current times. It may not be unusual for a CCW carrier to find him or herself defending their use of deadly force, defending the particular firearm they chose for everyday carry, and perhaps even their ammunition of choice. I am a firm believer in hollow point ammunition for any responsible citizen carrying any firearm. I carry a .45 ACP semi-auto firearm with .45+P, 230 Grain, semi-jacketed hollow point ammunition. The old adage seems to apply, "What does a suspect do after they were shot with a handgun? The same thing they were doing before they were shot with a handgun." Having witnessed numerous law enforcement shootings and seeing suspects continuing to do what they were doing before they were shot (at least for some period of time), made me realize a .38 caliber or 9mm simply was not sufficient. I am a firm believer in the general concept of .45 ACP ammo being great for stopping power. I agree that shot placement is paramount to stopping a suspect the best and the fastest, but realistically, the advantage of ideal shot placement simply is not a reality in the chaos of a shooting. The various articles printed on the development of the .45 ACP for stopping power and having witnessed .38 caliber and .9mm shootings where suspects, some hyped on adrenaline, others on drugs, simply kept coming, kept running, or just "kept on a keeping on," convinced me that .45 ACP was the way forward for me. I carried the standard .45 ACP at first but after reading numerous studies on the nature of the .45 ACP projectile, clothing penetration, over penetration, and other data, switched to the .45+P. The information I researched led me to believe .45 ACP+P was a much better choice overall. My Glock 21 or Glock 30 can handle the increased pressure associated with firing +P ammo, and the additonal velocity ensures better accuracy. The .45+P round also ensures better penetration, reasonable assurance against over penetration, and better overall bullet performance, particularly in the area of expansion. There was some data presented where .45 ACP was opined to be so slow it might be unable to fully expand as designed, thereby negating some of the advantages of carrying the .45 round at all. If this was the case at all, it does not appear .45+P ammo exhipts this shortcoming. There appears to be no additonal risk of over penetration and data indicates there is more risk over over penetration from some ligher 9mm projectiles than .45 ACP+P ammo. In any case, I took copious notes from your article, as I often do, and keep this information filed away for future use, if needed. I hope I never need it to defend my actions, choice of firearm, or ammo, but better to have the data and not need it, than to need it and not have it!
Thanks much Mr. Ayoob and be safe!

P.S.

The graphic video link below serves as a stark reminder of the lack of stopping power of the 9mm semi-auto pistol round in a law enforcement shooting captured by a witness.

Crazed Man Soaks Up 12 Rounds in Law Enforecement Shooting:

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

VIDEO: Crazed Man Attacking Deputy Soaks Up 12 Rounds Before He's Stopped - The Truth About Guns

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ A crazed man’s rampage came to a not-so-sudden end Saturday morning in Montgomery County Maryland, and a bystander caught it all on video. After striking a lone deputy twice with a long stick, the attacker took a dozen rounds while still advancing on the officer...
www.thetruthaboutguns.com www.thetruthaboutguns.com

I also attached two articles:

Invention of the .45 ACP Round for the Philippine-American War:

www.mybalitz.com

How the Philippine-American War Led to the Invention of the Colt .45 Handgun

The United States of America was born from an armed revolution fought by volunteer armies against a monarch that had
www.mybalitz.com www.mybalitz.com

Why a Police Officer Carries 145 Rounds of Ammo:

www.police1.com

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty
www.police1.com www.police1.com
 
Denver police, in about 1972/3 were challenged over their use of hollow point bullets. They subjected the issue to test and found conclusively that their hollow point bullets were the most effective and least hazardous (to bystanders) ammunition. I've seen nothing since that contradicts their findings.
 
Good article! I gave up on defense HP ammo a while back. I'm interested in maximum penetration, not maximum mushrooming and minimum penetration. You will never know when you need the extra penetration...

Could not post the whole thing as it is too long. I left out intro and all rimfire tests


*.32 S&W Remington

.32 S&W Remington Lead RN 88 grain 1-7/8" barrel Ruger LCR snubnose.
Penetration:5/8"



*.32 H&R Magnum

.32 H&R Magnum Black Hills 90 grain Lead SWC 1-7/8" barrel Ruger LCR snubnose.
Penetration:3/4"

.32 H&R Magnum Black Hills 85 grain JHP 1-7/8" barrel Ruger LCR snubnose.
Penetration:15/16"

.32 H&R Magnum Hornady FTX Critical Defense 80 grain JHP w/plastic 1-7/8" barrel Ruger LCR snubnose.
Penetration:1-1/8"



*.327 Federal Magnum

.327 Federal Magnum Underwood 95 grain Xtreme Defender solid copper 1500fps 1-7/8" barrel Ruger LCR snubnose.
Penetration:1-1/2"
Notes:Would not eject, jammed in cylinder. Gun cylinder was clean.

.327 Federal Magnum Federal Hydra-Shok 85 grain JHP w/pin 1-7/8" barrel Ruger LCR snubnose.
Penetration:1-1/4"
Notes:Ejected fine.



*.380 Auto

.380 Auto Underwood 68 grain Xtreme Defender solid copper 1300fps 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:1-7/16"

.380 Auto Underwood 100 grain Hard Cast Flat Nose Black Cherry Coated 975fps 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:15/16"

.380 Auto Remington 95 grain FMJ 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:13/16"

.380 Auto Federal 90 grain Hydra-Shok JHP w/pin 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:7/8"

.380 Auto PPU 94 grain FMJ 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:1"

.380 Auto S&W 84 grain JHP (blunt RN HP) 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:1-1/4"
Notes: 1990's vintage - Bangor Punta era.

.380 Auto Cor Bon 90 grain 1050 fps JHP 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:15/16"
Notes: Dirty

.380 Auto Ruger ARX 56 grains composite 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:1"

.380 Auto Hornady 90 grain XTP JHP 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:13/16"

.380 Auto Hornady FTX Critical Defense 90 grain JHP w/plastic 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:7/8"

.380 Auto Winchester 95 grain PDX1 Defender Bonded JHP 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:1-1/8"



*.38 Special- 2-1/8 inch snubnose barrel.

.38 Special Underwood 100 grain Xtreme Defender Solid copper 1200fps 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:1"

.38 Special Remington 130 grain FMJ 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:3/4"

.38 Special PPU 158 grains Lead RN 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:3/4"
Notes:privi Partizan, Serbia. Dirty load.

.38 Special Federal 130 grain FMJ 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:1"

.38 Special Hornady 158 grain XTP JHP 800 fps 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:3/4"+

.38 Special Hornady 125 grain XTP JHP 900 fps 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:3/4"

.38 Special Federal Hydra-Shok JHP w/pin (Grains?) 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:3/4"

.38 Special Winchester Kinetic HE 110 grains 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:15/16"

.38 Special Hornady 110 grains FTX JHP w/plastic tip 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:1-1/8"

.38 Special Hornady Pink Label 90 grains FTX Critical Defense JHP 1200 fps w/plastic tip 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:3/4"+

.38 Special (?) grains? R-P Remington-Peters Lead HP 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:3/4 inch.
Notes:Dirty



*.38 Special - 4 inch barrel.

.38 Special Underwood 100 grain Xtreme Defender Solid copper 1200fps 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:1-1/8"

.38 Special 130 grain Federal FMJ 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:1-1/8"

.38 Special 158 grain PPU / Privi Partizan Lead RN 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:3/4"
Notes:Dirty

.38 Special 130 grain R-P Remington Peters FMJ Flat Tip 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:1-3/16"

.38 Special 158 grain Magtech reloaded Lead RN 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:5/8"

.38 Special 110 grain Winchester Kinetic HE JHP 950 fps 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:1-3/8", 1-3/8" (Tested 2x)

.38 Special 150 grain Winchester Lead RN 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:7/8"

.38 Special 125 grain Hornady XTP JHP 900 fps 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:7/8"

.38 Special 158 grain Hornady XTP JHP 800 fps 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:7/8"

.38 Special 90 grain (Pink Label / Women's load) Hornady SPCL FTX w/plastic 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:9/16" - 5/8"



*.38 Special +P - 4 inch barrel.

.38 Special Underwood 100 grain Xtreme Defender Solid copper 1300fps 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:1-13/16"
Penetration:1-7/8"
Notes:Tested 2x



*.357 Magnum 2-1/8: barrel

.357 Magnum Underwood 120 grain Xtreme Hunter solid copper 1700 fps 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:1-7/8"
Notes:Hurt hand

.357 Hornady grains (?) Critical Defense w/plastic 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:1-3/8"

.357 125 grain Winchester Elite PDX1 Defender Bonded JHP 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:1-3/16"



*.357 Magnum 4" barrel

.357 Magnum Underwood Xtreme Hunter solid copper 1700 fps 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:2-1/4"

.357 Hornady grains (?) Critical Defense w/plastic 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:1-7/16"

.357 125 grain Winchester Elite PDX1 Defender Bonded JHP 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:1-7/16"



*9mm Luger 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS

9mm Luger 90 grains Underwood XT Defender solid copper 1400 fps 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:2-1/8"
Penetration:2"
Notes:Tested 2x

9mm Luger 68 grains Underwood XT Defender Platinum coated solid copper 1700 fps 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:2-1/8"

9mm Luger 115 grains Blazer FMJ 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-3/16"

9mm Luger 135 grains Hornady Critical Duty FlexLock HP w/plastic 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:15/16"

9mm Luger 115 grains PMC Bronze FMJ 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:2"
Penetration:2"
Notes:Tested 2x

9mm Luger 115 grains Kinetic HE JHP Winchester 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-13/16"

9mm Luger 124 grains Winchester FMJ Target 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-1/16"

9mm Luger 115 grains Remington R-P FMJ 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-5/8"

9mm Luger+P 115 grains Barnes TAC XPD all copper HP coated 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:15/16"

9mm Luger 100 grains Team Never Quit JAG Frangible 1300 fps HP 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-7/8"

9mm Luger 115 grains Herter's nylon jacket solid bullet aluminum case 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:2"

9mm Luger 65 grains Ruger ARX copper/ polymer blend composite bullets 1620 fps 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-13/16"

9mm Luger 115 grains Sig Sauer V-Crown JHP 1185 fps 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-9/16"

9mm Luger Hornady Critical Defense JHP w/plastic 1620 fps 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-3/8"



*9mm Luger +P 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS

9mm Luger 68 grains Underwood XT Defender Platinum coated solid copper 1800 fps 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:2-1/2"



*9mm Luger 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC

9mm Luger 68 grains Underwood XT Defender Platinum coated solid copper 1700 fps 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:2-5/8"

9mm Luger 90 grains Underwood XT Defender solid copper 1400 fps 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:2-1/16"

9mm Luger 115 grains Blazer FMJ 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:1-7/16"

9mm Luger 124 grains Winchester FMJ Target single packed 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:1-1/4"
Notes:Dirty

9mm Luger 115 grains Winchester FMJ Target bulk packed 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:1-3/8"
Notes:Dirty

9mm Luger 115 grains Remington R-P FMJ 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:2"
Penetration:2-1/8"
Penetration:2-1/16"
Notes: Tested 3X / slightly dirty

9mm Luger 115 grains Sig Sauer V-Crown JHP 1185 fps 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:2-1/8"

9mm Luger 100 grains Team Never Quit JAG Frangible 1300 fps grains 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:2-1/8



*9mm Luger +P 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC

9mm Luger +P 68 grains Underwood XT Defender Platinum coated solid copper 1800 fps 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:3-1/8"
Penetration:3-1/16"
Penetration:3-1/16"
Notes:Tested 3X



*9mm Luger +P+ 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC

9mm Luger +P+ 90 grains Underwood XT Defender solid copper 1550 fps 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:2-3/8"

9mm Luger +P+ 90 grains Underwood XT Defender Platinum coated solid copper 1550 fps 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:2-7/8"



*.45 Auto

.45 230 grains Federal FMJ 4.5" barrel FN FNP-45
Penetration:1"

.45 118 grains Ruger ARX copper/ polymer blend composite bullets 1307fps 4.5" barrel FN FNP-45
Penetration:1-1/2"



*5.7x28mm 18" barrel FN PS90

5.7x28mm 40 grains Federal American Eagle FMJ 18" barrel FN PS90
Penetration:2-3/4" - redo, bullet exited the side of the box

5.7x28mm 40 grains FN Hornady V-Max 18" barrel FN PS90
Penetration:1-7/8"


Future test...ran out of Uline catalogs.

*.5.56mm NATO

..5.56mm NATO FMJ 18" barrel AR-15

..5.56mm NATO Green Tip M855 18" barrel AR-15

.5.56mm NATO pistol tests



...well good luck out there!


Atomic Bomb Vacation 2.jpg



PS...I hope Springfield is working on the .380 Bobcat...a smaller clone of the Hellcat.
 
Mike H. said:
Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “The Rationale for Defensive Hollow Points” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/the-rationale-for-defensive-hollow-points/.

Click to expand...
I have a background in engineering and I agree 100% with the hollow point ammunition and it's use. I personally use Federal 45 acp HST in my EDC because after seeing numerous tests it seems to be the most reliable from what I've observed. This is also due to it having a much lower speed 850 fps, than your typical 9mm 1250 fps that the majority use. Moreover, I don't feel that a +P load is needed in a self defense situation because of what my training has taught me about what's a legal self defense situation is, and what is not. Plus we must be vigilant of what might be behind the threat. I'm quite confident it will stop the threat should the need arise. I hope that day never comes but I feel that I do need to be prepared for it should it arise. More, now than ever, with crime rising and illegal immigrants flooding this wonderful country of ours, one has to be responsibly prepared and should be. I believe it's our responsibility to do so because, the police can't, and will not always be there to take the appropriate effective, action necessary to defend us "the law abiding citizens". President Kennedy said it well... "ask not what your country can do for you, but you can do for your country"... Great article, thank you... Have a great day.
 
Massad Ayoob took on Dudley Dudley and won the day is significant in itself... because during that era she is the one who took on Aristotle Onassis stopping him from building a refinery on the isle of shoals near Durham, was to bring in millions to the state and thousands of jobs. She makes H. Clinton look like a girl scout. That aside it is an excellent article and I have been using hollow points for decades, even making my own when living in Guam and reloading supplies were scarce.
 
Really...again we are reminded of something that is truly in the past! This topic has been active for the last forty years and is re hashed like it was just yesterday. I have been in Law Enforcement long enough to know that this matter in Police Departments has been put to bed, some time ago. The only people still not using "defensive ammunition". are the people who cannot afford it or the ones who are ill informed. I understand the Writers have an obligation to inform the ill informed but please try to do it with Less "I"s
 
Inchly said:
Really...again we are reminded of something that is truly in the past! This topic has been active for the last forty years and is re hashed like it was just yesterday. I have been in Law Enforcement long enough to know that this matter in Police Departments has been put to bed, some time ago. The only people still not using "defensive ammunition". are the people who cannot afford it or the ones who are ill informed. I understand the Writers have an obligation to inform the ill informed but please try to do it with Less "I"s
Click to expand...
Old news to you, I’m new this & any forums & whilst I’m relatively well versed reading about Ayoob’s common sense court defense pitfalls to avoid, didn’t know that bit of background .. maybe I’m the only one but maybe not .. Not trying to be the guy who stirs the s**t pot ( cuz that guy should havta lick the same spoon !! ), just calmly saying not all us ‘rookies’ know the same stuff u BTDT people do.

Prolly does get old seeing same stuff over & over though. Everyone has a first day/experience even guys who thought they’d seen it all .. just saying .. & get that spoon away from me, I’m not licking it !!
 
old but still kicking said:
Old news to you, I’m new this & any forums & whilst I’m relatively well versed reading about Ayoob’s common sense court defense pitfalls to avoid, didn’t know that bit of background .. maybe I’m the only one but maybe not .. Not trying to be the guy who stirs the s**t pot ( cuz that guy should havta lick the same spoon !! ), just calmly saying not all us ‘rookies’ know the same stuff u BTDT people do.

Prolly does get old seeing same stuff over & over though. Everyone has a first day/experience even guys who thought they’d seen it all .. just saying .. & get that spoon away from me, I’m not licking it !!
Click to expand...
This is a late as I haven’t been free to read a lot of threads. Here is the issue within the firearms industry. Everything seems to recycle every 15-30 years. Whether guns, carry methods or a lot of equipment stuff. Which isn’t always bad as it’s nice for some new folks to learn and sometimes those of us that have been through it can’t remember everything or overlook the obvious that we take for granted we thought everyone knew.

Some issues though that keep coming up wether the hollow points, or should you modify your gun or “don’t shoot 38’s in 357 magnums etc etc gets old. As it’s basically fear mongering and just isn’t true.

The whole issue with getting charged has nothing to do with using hollow points or modifying your gun. A Prosecutor can charge anyone they don’t need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt just to land a conviction (look at Rittenhouse as a good example)

What they do however if it’s a questionable shoot and charge you they will play on the JHP or that dust cover on your AR etc. if you have a lawyer that is knowledgeable of the firearms industry and actual self defense laws you if the shoot was in fact legal should be good. However that’s easier to say and type here than when you are going through it.
 
Whole bunch of Chat Bot responses.

I'm not a wound ballistic expert but I know where to find the information.

This list is considered definitive. I wouldn't hesitate to use any ammunition listed on it.

Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo

6/1/16 When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr: http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg As...
pistol-forum.com
 
The Night Rider said:
Whole bunch of Chat Bot responses.

I'm not a wound ballistic expert but I know where to find the information.

This list is considered definitive. I wouldn't hesitate to use any ammunition listed on it.

Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo

6/1/16 When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr: http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg As...
pistol-forum.com
Click to expand...
While no doubt JHP and more specifically Bonded has made improvements whats ild is new again in a way.

Fort Scott has a tumble on impact round that like Chuck Haggards test with USAF Ball 38 special ammo from back in the day (both M41 and PGU ball) also tumbles and yaws causing a temp wound cavitation similar to a JHP (and when I was USAF I had 2 Flight Chiefs that downed Viet Cong with a single 38 round and M41 ball they mentioned out front sight just at or below the clavical) it seems there might be something there

However with the choices other than a restrictive state (NJ etc)
 
ECS686 said:
While no doubt JHP and more specifically Bonded has made improvements whats ild is new again in a way.

Fort Scott has a tumble on impact round that like Chuck Haggards test with USAF Ball 38 special ammo from back in the day (both M41 and PGU ball) also tumbles and yaws causing a temp wound cavitation similar to a JHP (and when I was USAF I had 2 Flight Chiefs that downed Viet Cong with a single 38 round and M41 ball they mentioned out front sight just at or below the clavical) it seems there might be something there

However with the choices other than a restrictive state (NJ etc)
Click to expand...
Ok
 
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