Ok everyone, I have a question. I am not sure if this has been addressed in another forum question but I need to ask. In the state I live in, if a person has their CCW, they can open carry or conceal carry. So now my question. And I have heard arguments that open carry can/will make someone a target. How many people on this forum that read this open carry? Is it true that it if a person open carries, it makes them a target? Or does it deter a bad guy from engaging that person because the bad guy would rather search out a s soft target? Is there statistical data that supports one argument over the other?
To open carry or not
- Thread starter dbarnes42
- Start date
ddeuce22
Professional
I mostly conceal carry my 365 XL. But since I got my Ronin, i've been trying to break in this OWB holster I got for it, and it prints pretty bad so i've just decided that when I wear it out for break in i'll open carry the Ronin. I get alot of looks and it's quite uncomfortable. Occasionally someone will comment on it also. I much prefer conceal carry.
michael.ed
Master Class
I conceal carry mainly because I don’t want to draw attention to myself. I want to be the watcher, not the watched.
ChanceMcCall
Custom
Just because you have a permit to carry concealed does not mean you may carry openly in many states. In some states you can be arrested if your concealed weapon flashes.
Personally I prefer concealed carry as I don't want to be "first target" for any bad guy with bad intentions, nor do I wanted to be singled out for attention by everyone else.
KASHIRA-3
Elite
Holding yourself self out as the most obvious threat to a violent predatory criminal can certainly effect your position on any potential target hierarchy which may develop if the criminal decides to use a firearm to effect his goals. Whether or not open carry is a positive or negative can substantially depend on
Speaking just for myself, I consider open carry to be less than prudent for most public spaces and anywhere you are encountering the public at large. In rural America, in the woods or some privately controlled venue, many issues and concerns are often reasonably mitigated.
Criminals are not likely to make decisions or consider situations in the same way as the law abiding and they are often motived by very different forces. Things like addiction, mental illness, perceived dire need, gang influences and plain ole wicked indifference can make it very difficult to predict how criminals will respond.
Can open carry deter crime, sure. Unfortunately I feel that this deterrence exists within some very narrow parameters where all the stars and moons align just right. We dont know when the criminal will realize the OC citizen ( if at all) and that fact is problematic. If it occurrs before any overt action has taken place, that is a plus in my book. If it occurs after overt action has begun, while it continues or during the escape or at some point where aborting the crime is not likely.. that would be a terrible time for them to realize that an armed citizen is in their immediate proximity.
I have always felt that concealing my weapon offers me the most options in the most varying of conditions. If others want to open carry, its fine by me. Honestly, I feel that OC is likely more about attention, activism or efforts toward social engineering. Of course it may not be any of those things but that is what comes to mind. There are plenty of reasons that so many law enforcement officers do not open carry when off duty. Tactics and strategic are two very important aspects of mitigating danger and risk. Mode of carry is certainly a minor tactic and one that I will keep concealed as much as possible. I live in an open carry State and the practice is vary rare. I have not seen an open carrier in years. The last one that I did see was waving a political sign of some sort and making a ruckus.
Whatever you decide to do, good luck
- Exactly when the criminal realizes the open carry citizen ( if at all)
- Whether or not overt actions have begun when the realization occurrs
- How determined/committed the criminal may be to carry out the crime or escape the scene
- Overall impression that the criminal has of the open carrier. ( old, young, fit, out of shape, aware, clueless, serious or timid)
Speaking just for myself, I consider open carry to be less than prudent for most public spaces and anywhere you are encountering the public at large. In rural America, in the woods or some privately controlled venue, many issues and concerns are often reasonably mitigated.
Criminals are not likely to make decisions or consider situations in the same way as the law abiding and they are often motived by very different forces. Things like addiction, mental illness, perceived dire need, gang influences and plain ole wicked indifference can make it very difficult to predict how criminals will respond.
Can open carry deter crime, sure. Unfortunately I feel that this deterrence exists within some very narrow parameters where all the stars and moons align just right. We dont know when the criminal will realize the OC citizen ( if at all) and that fact is problematic. If it occurrs before any overt action has taken place, that is a plus in my book. If it occurs after overt action has begun, while it continues or during the escape or at some point where aborting the crime is not likely.. that would be a terrible time for them to realize that an armed citizen is in their immediate proximity.
I have always felt that concealing my weapon offers me the most options in the most varying of conditions. If others want to open carry, its fine by me. Honestly, I feel that OC is likely more about attention, activism or efforts toward social engineering. Of course it may not be any of those things but that is what comes to mind. There are plenty of reasons that so many law enforcement officers do not open carry when off duty. Tactics and strategic are two very important aspects of mitigating danger and risk. Mode of carry is certainly a minor tactic and one that I will keep concealed as much as possible. I live in an open carry State and the practice is vary rare. I have not seen an open carrier in years. The last one that I did see was waving a political sign of some sort and making a ruckus.
Whatever you decide to do, good luck
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Pitdogg2
Professional
This^^^
KASHIRA-3
Elite
On soft targets..
When all things are equal, sure.. I dont doubt that a person would choose an easy target over one expected to be difficult. The problem is that most things are not equal and street crime is rarely about the attributes of the victim. When I say street crime I am excluding those crimes considered to be targeting a special victim. Most crime ( in my estimation) is more about time, place, easy of escape, sparseness of witnesses, sparseness of police presence, expected gain and much less about the characteristics or attributes of the victim. If you are the guy who walks past the dumpster at 2:30 am then you are the guy. It probably wont matter if you are big, little, tough looking or meek. Windows of opportunity often open and close rapidly and badguys are not loitering or orbiting the area looking for the perfect victim of street crime. They will often use weapons to even the field and they not often strangers to resistance, force or the threat of force.
ps: carrying a gun does not make everyone a hard target. Open carriers get relieved of their visible weapons quite regularly.
When all things are equal, sure.. I dont doubt that a person would choose an easy target over one expected to be difficult. The problem is that most things are not equal and street crime is rarely about the attributes of the victim. When I say street crime I am excluding those crimes considered to be targeting a special victim. Most crime ( in my estimation) is more about time, place, easy of escape, sparseness of witnesses, sparseness of police presence, expected gain and much less about the characteristics or attributes of the victim. If you are the guy who walks past the dumpster at 2:30 am then you are the guy. It probably wont matter if you are big, little, tough looking or meek. Windows of opportunity often open and close rapidly and badguys are not loitering or orbiting the area looking for the perfect victim of street crime. They will often use weapons to even the field and they not often strangers to resistance, force or the threat of force.
ps: carrying a gun does not make everyone a hard target. Open carriers get relieved of their visible weapons quite regularly.
javbike
Hellcat
Very well said
Along with what @KASHIRA-3 noted in his posts above, it's worth remembering that in certain company, the open presence of a weapon can also be perceived as a direct challenge.
Similarly, in yet other social contexts where the open carry of a sidearm is often considered the norm, to be "made" with a concealed handgun can also lead to negative social consequences.
Similarly, in yet other social contexts where the open carry of a sidearm is often considered the norm, to be "made" with a concealed handgun can also lead to negative social consequences.
Lock n' Load
Custom
Open carry with no permit is legal in my state. I know someone who does who is constantly stopped and questioned by police, store personnel, and curious onlookers. The firearm carried is a S&W M&P Shield 9mm 1.0 which is easily concealed. When I speak to this person about concealment options, and the pros and cons, the reply is always, "I'll get a permit sometime". Fortunately, this person is a safe and accurate shooter. For me, my OWB holsters are for some training, range time, outdoors in winter with a cover garment, and when I'm in the woods. At all other times, it's concealed carry for me. Just my opinion, not judging anyone. Make your own choices as to your needs, preferences, and be safe.
Edit to correct auto correct.
Edit to correct auto correct.
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HayesGreener
Ronin
A lot of the argument depends on where you are. If you are in a state where open carry is a cultural norm you are not likely to draw a lot of attention. Try it in an urban area and you are going to get a different reaction. A lot of businesses will ask you to leave (which is their right), because they don't want a bunch of armed people in their establishment. At the very least openly carrying can be provocative.
Open carry in Florida is prohibited with a few exceptions. Florida has in several past legislative sessions seen pro-gun bills that include open carry as a provision and they have failed-I believe open carry is largely what killed those bills in committee.
Here is how I see open carry in urban areas. The obvious negative is that you are advertising that you are armed, so if a problem erupts you have lost the advantage of the evildoer not knowing you are armed. (Although in most instances a percentage of the population is not even going to notice.)
Whether you are deterring crime by being openly armed is open for debate. Criminals are shooting armed security officers and armed police officers in broad daylight, so consider that. An active shooter or armed robber may or may not mark you for a priority target if you are openly carrying, but at a minimum you no longer have the "Big Surprise" as your hole card.
There are other considerations as well. One that concerns me a lot is weapon retention. In states where open carry is allowed by law, there is no standard for firearm retention. I have seen enough of these cheap holsters that make it easier for an opponent to snatch a gun than for the wearer to draw it. Gun grabs were a major problem for law enforcement before we had Level III retention holsters. If I can't get a gun legally I can just go to Wal Mart and walk around until I see some guy wearing one of those cheap or unsecured holsters and snatch his. If you are going to carry openly, give some thought to weapon retention.
Another issue I am concerned with is that with open carry, in every interaction you have with others when openly carrying a firearm, you have injected a firearm into the encounter. So if you are having a confrontation over a parking place at WalMart during the Christmas shopping season, that just became an armed confrontation which can escalate quickly. (I use WalMart in my scenarios because a lot of stuff happens in WalMart parking lots).
We have all manner of critters out here on the ranch which make it prudent for me to carry my pistol openly. As my wife says, "If he has his boots on, he has his gun on". But when I head into town it takes me 5 seconds to throw a shirt on to cover the gun.
On balance I think open carry in urban areas is not advisable.
Open carry in Florida is prohibited with a few exceptions. Florida has in several past legislative sessions seen pro-gun bills that include open carry as a provision and they have failed-I believe open carry is largely what killed those bills in committee.
Here is how I see open carry in urban areas. The obvious negative is that you are advertising that you are armed, so if a problem erupts you have lost the advantage of the evildoer not knowing you are armed. (Although in most instances a percentage of the population is not even going to notice.)
Whether you are deterring crime by being openly armed is open for debate. Criminals are shooting armed security officers and armed police officers in broad daylight, so consider that. An active shooter or armed robber may or may not mark you for a priority target if you are openly carrying, but at a minimum you no longer have the "Big Surprise" as your hole card.
There are other considerations as well. One that concerns me a lot is weapon retention. In states where open carry is allowed by law, there is no standard for firearm retention. I have seen enough of these cheap holsters that make it easier for an opponent to snatch a gun than for the wearer to draw it. Gun grabs were a major problem for law enforcement before we had Level III retention holsters. If I can't get a gun legally I can just go to Wal Mart and walk around until I see some guy wearing one of those cheap or unsecured holsters and snatch his. If you are going to carry openly, give some thought to weapon retention.
Another issue I am concerned with is that with open carry, in every interaction you have with others when openly carrying a firearm, you have injected a firearm into the encounter. So if you are having a confrontation over a parking place at WalMart during the Christmas shopping season, that just became an armed confrontation which can escalate quickly. (I use WalMart in my scenarios because a lot of stuff happens in WalMart parking lots).
We have all manner of critters out here on the ranch which make it prudent for me to carry my pistol openly. As my wife says, "If he has his boots on, he has his gun on". But when I head into town it takes me 5 seconds to throw a shirt on to cover the gun.
On balance I think open carry in urban areas is not advisable.
Part of the reasoning behind (CC) Concealed Carry for me, there are many other reasons, is open carry can make some people nervous. Nervous people can sometimes make ignorant / stupid choices where they wouldn't otherwise. I prefer dealing with and being around rational people. Maybe not as much fun in some ways, but tends to be safer for everyone.
Very wise words.
Keystone19250
SAINT
I look at it this way, living in Kentucky you can open and conceal carry without a license, I do realize when I see an individual who is open carrying no matter where it is my senses are raised to a higher level and I find myself scrutinizing that individual and his/her possible intentions. For that and other reasons such as not wanting to be the first victim when someone decides to act violently I prefer to conceal carry.
Bassbob
Emissary
Open or concealed carry is legal without a permit in my state. I see people open carrying in grocery stores and wherever and I don't give it a second thought. Criminals or people with bad intent are probably not cruising down aisle 7 trying to decide which type of mustard they want. I have a heightened sense of awareness regardless of whether I see a guy with a gun or not. It has been drilled into my psyche from a decade of working on the streets in the most violent neighborhoods in the country.
As for my personal choice of carry method, it will always be concealed. If I am carrying in an OWB, and I often am, I wear an over garment. Untucked button up shirt or jacket. And I have nice holsters that are designed to minimize printing. Yeah, a trained eye could deduce that I am carrying, but most people have no clue. All kinds of people wear phones in cases on their belts and all sorts of other apparati. I limit OWB mostly to non summer carry.
As for my personal choice of carry method, it will always be concealed. If I am carrying in an OWB, and I often am, I wear an over garment. Untucked button up shirt or jacket. And I have nice holsters that are designed to minimize printing. Yeah, a trained eye could deduce that I am carrying, but most people have no clue. All kinds of people wear phones in cases on their belts and all sorts of other apparati. I limit OWB mostly to non summer carry.
"...when I see an individual who is open carrying no matter where it is my senses are raised to a higher level and I find myself scrutinizing that individual and his/her possible intentions."
Ditto. Kentucky here also. I see the occasonal open-carriers in Walmart and Kroger, and both of those places have stated they do not want open-carry, but do permit CC. The guys (and random gal sometimes) I'm seeing always present/carry themselves with the F U, I'll do what I want attitude/demeanor. You can see it in their eyes, and how they carry themselves. The ones doing it, at least around here, are predominately in their late 50's and upwards, but not sure if age has anything at all to do with it, just making observations.
Keystone19250
SAINT
I won’t shop in a Kroger, close to a year ago I was approached by another customer while I was standing in line to check out. She made a terrible scene that she had seen my gun while I was shopping and she was frightened that I was going to shoot everyone, I never said a word to her or the manager that came over to see what the shouting was all about. Even though all my groceries were on the belt and being scanned for check out the manager told me the police had been called and that I should leave. Without saying a word I walked out of the store and to my truck to wait for the police. In the end I gave them my statement about what had happened and a witness spoke to the police and told them I never said a word to anyone and was very professional. The manager came out while I was talking to an officer and started to chastise me, again I remained silent. I was never disarmed by the police and the officer commented that he appreciated that I remained calm and quiet. I told him I had nothing to be upset about and that I had done nothing wrong, he agreed and let me go.