testtest

What's the future of the Saint series?

T

TacticalPirate

Master Class
It seems Springfield has not been innovating their AR lineup and scaled back many of their offerings. I wonder what the decision making of this has been beyond supply chain issues.

The retirement of the Saint Edge pistol series far pre-empted the ATF's tenuous brace ruling that will never go into enforceable effect because of legal challenges that will see it dispatched into the rubbish bin of unconstitutional overreach.

And the Saint Edge ATC appears to have been a rare miss with consumers, a bountiful supply exist online and prices are falling.

It leads one to ask out loud, what is the future of SA's Saint series? Even the M&P lineup upgraded recently while the Saint lineup scaled back.

Any insights? Is SA withdrawing slowly from AR style firearms because they think the market is over saturated with competition?
 
TacticalPirate said:
It seems Springfield has not been innovating their AR lineup and scaled back many of their offerings. I wonder what the decision making of this has been beyond supply chain issues.

The retirement of the Saint Edge pistol series far pre-empted the ATF's tenuous brace ruling that will never go into enforceable effect because of legal challenges that will see it dispatched into the rubbish bin of unconstitutional overreach.

And the Saint Edge ATC appears to have been a rare miss with consumers, a bountiful supply exist online and prices are falling.

It leads one to ask out loud, what is the future of SA's Saint series? Even the M&P lineup upgraded recently while the Saint lineup scaled back.

Any insights? Is SA withdrawing slowly from AR style firearms because they think the market is over saturated with competition?
Click to expand...
Yea, I noticed that also, might be just a marketing thing, supply issue or something like that, could also be like you said about the market being flooded with AR style firearms
 
Annihilator said:
Yea, I noticed that also, might be just a marketing thing, supply issue or something like that, could also be like you said about the market being flooded with AR style firearms
Click to expand...
Formerly it was M&P that was stagnant with just a couple of basic reliable offerings, they seem to have adopted the Victor and Edge tiered approach while SA has dropped it.

The Saint and M&P probably represent at least half of the entry level AR market.
 
TacticalPirate said:
Formerly it was M&P that was stagnant with just a couple of basic reliable offerings, they seem to have adopted the Victor and Edge tiered approach while SA has dropped it.

The Saint and M&P probably represent at least half of the entry level AR market.
Click to expand...
I doubt that very seriously. If, as you say, The Saint represented 1/4 of the entry level market they would be cranking them out so fast your head would spin. And I suppose to people who only have high end stuff Springfield and S&W might seem like entry level, but they are about double the price of entry level on average. Radikal, Bear Creek, PSA, Zion, Voodoo Innovations, those are entry level.
 
Bassbob said:
I doubt that very seriously. If, as you say, The Saint represented 1/4 of the entry level market they would be cranking them out so fast your head would spin. And I suppose to people who only have high end stuff Springfield and S&W might seem like entry level, but they are about double the price of entry level on average. Radikal, Bear Creek, PSA, Zion, Voodoo Innovations, those are entry level.
Click to expand...
The M&P 15 was the top selling semi auto rifle of the pandemic.

That's because of price point plus Smith & Wesson reputation, making it the perfect first AR for a newbie learning the platform.

It was even Kyle Rittenhouse's weapon.

www.americanrifleman.org

An Official Journal Of The NRA | S&W M&P-15 Sport II: The Top-Selling Semi-Auto Rifle of 2020

AR-15s were popular rifles for buyers in 2020, and the Smith & Wesson M&P-15 Sport II topped the list of semi-automatic rifles sold on GunBroker.
www.americanrifleman.org www.americanrifleman.org
 
Last edited:
So…

Really, what more can you do with them, “future” wise? What more do they actually need?

I mean, it’s an AR. You can choose one with a rail/no rail, etc, etc…but, how many bells, whistles, and toys do you need an AR to come with?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
HansGruber said:
So…

Really, what more can you do with them, “future” wise? What more do they actually need?

I mean, it’s an AR. You can choose one with a rail/no rail, etc, etc…but, how many bells, whistles, and toys do you need an AR to come with?
Click to expand...
Scaling back offerings is what is peculiar.

Most pistols are off line, and their most expensive "high end" offering the Saint Edge ATC rifle has been a flop.

So it's a fair question, what's up here?

M&P expanded their line despite their basic rifle being the best selling rifle in America during the pandemic while SA has scaled back, so what's the cause?

As far as innovation goes, expanding calibers that weapons are chambered in is a direction many are taking, SA hasn't.
 
Last edited:
Talyn said:
According to the 2020 AFMER Repot (latest available) SA manufactured 232,108 rifles of all types.

However, I'm not sure SA makes all their parts but likely relies on outside sources for all the components.
Click to expand...
Most do, the AR manufacturing scene is very incestuous. There's only five or six barrel manufacturers for them all, and they almost all use BCM, Troy, Magpul, and Geissele after market furniture, hand guards, grips, sights, trigger components.
 
All manufacturers are cautiously always looking ahead more than ever, maybe since 1976 era.
Costs from materials and labor to transportation just can‘t meet goals in the current economy. Close out clearence models make for a quick quarterly revenue boost too, out with the old-in with the new.
But was the Edge 223 Wylde in the SA lineup making it an oddball in an otherwise flooded AR market? Understandingly some manufacturers can afford hit or misses and don’t delve into production unless market research says otherwise.
Some manufacturers seem to have invested heavy not only in products but in logistics and plant expansion with certain expectation way too fast, a gamble or a dud product can also be argued.
I think SA done quite well in the more recent last 5 yrs at least, products both quality and performance offerings at all levels. SA rethinking the forecast, maybe it’s that time.

The AR in general is a hot button topic and don’t think any amount marketing is going to go over well with the biased opposition for a product that’s now overly cast in gloom and doom.
Poor sales here and there, yet overall demand remains high as seen with handgun ownership. Regulation, pending or proposed could further alter any of the profitable inventory too.
Scaling back on all sectors of U.S. manufacturing is the economic barometer to be wary of, not just one dismal product in the lineup.
 
SA will adjust their product line based on what their marketing research indicates what they will sell more, which is the basic to medium-end ARs.

I don't see SA venturing into the high-end market.
 
Talyn said:
SA will adjust their product line based on what their marketing research indicates what they will sell more, which is the basic to medium-end ARs.

I don't see SA venturing into the high-end market.
Click to expand...
So abandoning the Edge line up going forward then? Billeted receivers and maxim braced pistols are costly.
 
TacticalPirate said:
So abandoning the Edge line up going forward then? Billeted receivers and maxim braced pistols are costly.
Click to expand...
I don't work for SA like others here

Marketing language & bling is what it is. Simplistic statements are what they are.

A billet receiver functions the same way as a standard receiver although a CNC machine may make it look fancy. The controls on a billet vs. standard receiver can be the same make & function. So, I don't consider a billet receiver "high-end".

BTW, I don't think having a QD socket on a receiver (un-necessary bling) is needed, and I wouldn't want on a receiver.

A Maxim brace is an add-on, and braces are going away unless you want to get a stamp for using one. I don't consider a Maxim brace as high-end since it's just a component that not essential compared to other items that make up a rifle.

The ATC chassis approach is un-impressive.

SA had some interesting models, but they've been dropped or going away based on what SA sees coming down the road.

I've built ARs with better key components, at a cheaper price than the MSRPs for the EDGE line.

I wouldn't put SA in the same league as Noveske, LMT, POF, Daniel Defense.

My .02
 
Talyn said:
I don't work for SA like others here

Marketing language & bling is what it is. Simplistic statements are what they are.

A billet receiver functions the same way as a standard receiver although a CNC machine may make it look fancy. The controls on a billet vs. standard receiver can be the same make & function. So, I don't consider a billet receiver "high-end".

BTW, I don't think having a QD socket on a receiver (un-necessary bling) is needed, and I wouldn't want on a receiver.

A Maxim brace is an add-on, and braces are going away unless you want to get a stamp for using one. I don't consider a Maxim brace as high-end since it's just a component that not essential compared to other items that make up a rifle.

The ATC chassis approach is un-impressive.

SA had some interesting models, but they've been dropped or going away based on what SA sees coming down the road.

I've built ARs with better key components, at a cheaper price than the MSRPs for the EDGE line.

I wouldn't put SA in the same league as Noveske, LMT, POF, Daniel Defense.

My .02
Click to expand...
Billets are only costly if you’re not making many and have only a few machines tooled to churn them out.

I agree with you the MSRPs of most of these are over the top of what you could do on your own.

I put Daniel Defense in that category too since they throw milspec crunchy triggers in expensive rifles.

If you’re going to drop that kind of coin on an out of the box rifle, Geissele and Sons of Liberty seem to do a better job IMHO.
 
Billet is just a manufacturing method. Both receiver types are machined, it's just that billet receivers allow for some fancy features. If Billet receivers were better than forged all the US military rifles would have billet receivers.

Daniel Defense describes what they have in their ARs much better than SAs' generalized statements. DD puts their products out there more than SA does since DD sells individual components/parts whereas SA doesn't aside from magazines & other accessory stuff they source from elsewhere. That's why I think SA builds their rifles from sourced parts and may do final finish work, vs. actually manufacturing their own components.

I have an actual AR receiver manufacturer in my area & they've told me they manufacture AR receivers for other companies to those companies' specs & markings, either billet or forged.

I've looked at SOL stuff but haven't tried any of their products. I've preferred LaRue triggers on the majority of my rifles.

I like & use some SA products and not others.

My .02
 
Last edited:
Talyn said:
Billet is just a manufacturing method. Both receiver types are machined, it's just that billet receivers allow for some fancy features. If Billet receivers were better than forged all the US military rifles would have billet receivers.

Daniel Defense describes what they have in their ARs much better than SAs' generalized statements. DD puts their products out there more than SA does since DD sells individual components/parts whereas SA doesn't aside from magazines & other accessory stuff they source from elsewhere. That's why I think SA builds their rifles from sourced parts and may do final finish work, vs. actually manufacturing their own components.

I have an actual AR receiver manufacturer in my area & they've told me they manufacture AR receivers for other companies to those companies' specs & markings, either billet or forged.

I've looked at SOL stuff but haven't tried any of their products. I've preferred LaRue triggers on the majority of my rifles.

I like & use some SA products and not others.

My .02
Click to expand...
It's common practice for sure, Aero Precision was known to be the lower receiver supplier for a number of brands at one time.

When the M&P 15 first came to market in 2008 they were white labeled Stag Arms rifles before Smith & Wesson brought all the manufacturing in-house and also bought the Thompson Center, meaning a lot of ARs were using S&W subsidiary barrels in subsequent years.
 
I've been trying to figure out what SA is upto with their Edge and Victor lines for going-on 2 years now. I beat the bushes for up to 8 months following the covid outbreak... looking for some of them. The Victor PDW was the last one that I bought. Before it came the Edge Evac, as well as Saint Victor pistols in 5.56, .300BO, and .308. So I pretty much collected the whole set (though I would've preferred the PDW in the Edge series, over the Victor series one that I eventually found to purchase. But ever since then it's like the Saint pistol line just fell off a cliff and mostly disappeared. Very strange. I sold my .300BO Saint, but still have the rest and really like them all. I've tried to figure out ever since if it was a parts supply issue, or fear of the ATF power trip regarding pistol braces. At any rate, I consider myself extremely fortunate to have them. Most of my current love and attention goes to the 4 HK MPs/SPs that I've picked-up since last summer. But the Saints aren't going anywhere. They all rank right up there my HKs in both cool factor and reliability. It's a shame that those who didn't get them while they were being made/sold may never get the chance to own one.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top