Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “Is Drawing Your Gun a Mistake?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/is-drawing-your-gun-a-mistake/.
Is Drawing Your Gun a Mistake?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Good article.
What can you articulate as “reasonable” is the key. And knowing your states law.
my state has no “brandishing” statue just pointing a firearm it is a misdemeanor is unloaded and a felony if loaded. So unless you are justified in using deadly force I’d recommend against covering meat with muzzle. Low ready all day long your good. But again was your need to even draw a firearm
“Reasonable”
What can you articulate as “reasonable” is the key. And knowing your states law.
my state has no “brandishing” statue just pointing a firearm it is a misdemeanor is unloaded and a felony if loaded. So unless you are justified in using deadly force I’d recommend against covering meat with muzzle. Low ready all day long your good. But again was your need to even draw a firearm
“Reasonable”
Annihilator
Emissary
HansGruber
Ronin
My biggest gripe with SUL is 90% of folks don’t do it right. The Muzzle is suppose to be as the pic and completely 90 degrees straight down. The issue are most folks don’t do that and it’s at 35 degrees sweeping folks or your toddler size humans on the left (right for left handed) and the fact some try to sell it at a ready position when SUL is just a stand by position
But these current crop of trainers can’t tell you the history of the Weaver vs Isosceles so there’s that!!
SIW1911
Alpha
California, just show your firearm....no pointing needed. Unless within your dwelling (I believe), not property..DWELLING.
Why I am glad I live in Indiana we even have a self defense immunity statute. If you use deadly force and it is deemed justified OR you are acquitted you can not be successfully sued. We also have in the statute that is someone brings a suit when it gets dropped (as court precedent) you will be civilly awarded 3 times the legal expenses
Many informative articles appear on this blog, but their level of relevancy has much to do with whether the reader is military, law enforcement or simply a private citizen. In addition, while we can train and develop situational awareness, we cannot determine too far in advance the threat we must react to. What if you are facing 5 aggressors? Do you draw on them to see what happens next? Suppose in response they ALL draw on YOU ? Now what? Even if they don’t draw on you and then leave the scene you now have 5 witnesses against 1 if law enforcement responds to the situation. If you are a private citizen the best response to a physical threat is to put distance between you and your aggressor (run). If that isn’t possible then drawing your sidearm expecting that act will de-escalate the situation is rolling the dice without knowing the consequences. For me, my sidearm will remain holstered until I am highly confident I am facing a deadly force threat. At that time, when the sidearm is unholstered the trigger WILL be pulled.
SIW1911
Alpha
I agree pretty much. My choice on when to run, and when to defend "mine" may defer, as many will.
The biggest mistake a lot of people who carry is they are under the impression the mere possession or showing of a firearm wil ward off evil by itself. Situational decision making training is few and far between.
With that the biggest problem a lot of instructors make is they teach nothing but the firearm aspect and no decision making (most don’t have the experience or in the case of a lot of Military instructors they are programmed for an offensive use of force and not a legal civilian defensive use of force)
By all means you want to learn to run a gun a lot of folks do a great job teaching but learn what is a realistic expectation to protect yourself and stay within that legal box!!!! Why I am a huge proponent of Pepper spray
HansGruber
Ronin
Well…
Just having a firearm, and presenting it with the appearance of being willing to use it DOES end the majority of defensive firearms uses.
It’s when it doesn’t work that things get…interesting,
SIW1911
Alpha
You sure seem (think) to know what "a lot" of people know, and what "training" they require. Do you think I need this training you mention? If so why would you assume so? What gives your "impression" any weight over other people you don't know (though claim you do)?
The biggest mistake a lot of people who carry pepper spray is they are under the impression the mere possession, showing, or using pepper spray will ward off evil by itself. Situational decision making training is few and far between.
Respectfully the doesn’t work part of the time is the elephant in the room nobody talks about.
I did 20 years dealing with inner city gang members as well as cartel members and every major Security Threat Group within the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Teal criminals don’t care and are not being scared into compliance. And they will take it away from most folks as they don’t have the true fortitude to use it. (These are the same guys that try and do disarm uniform police officers with numerous encounters caught in video)
While your typical petty criminal will probably flee the more serious career types will not and the can read their intended victim like a book
My own municipal LE experience as well as what Tom Givens addresses in his Rangemaster program is one common statement among people that are victims of crime is most always said to themselves while it was happening “I can’t believe this is happening to me”
Some because they had a gun others because of the car they drove or neighborhood they lived in etc etc
So sort of related
The 5 A’s
Acceptance…it CAN happen to you
Awareness….look for signs of trouble. If people are milking around a lot don’t stop at that gas station.
Avoidance…go the other way even when you have a “gun”
Action…despite best efforts stufff finds you so act with 120% commitment
Aftermath…It’s going to be treated as a homicide or attempted homicide if you use a gun and doesn’t go smooth like TV in most cases
Bassbob
Emissary
It brings up a contentious conundrum for me. I was taught, more like had it beat into my head, by my dad that you never, ever pull a gun unless you have decided to use it and you never, ever shoot to wound something. However I can think of situations where I can see myself pulling a gun and then not using it. I mean they’re far fetched scenarios or seemingly so, but you could have decided to act and at the last microsecond the threat retreats or ceases to be a threat. I am a guy who keeps his head in tense situations. And I am a guy who would prefer not to kill something/someone if I have the option not to.
Side note. My Dutch friend used to say
“ Bob Friesj Blift”. Which was taken from an anti drinking and driving billboard we saw in Amsterdam. It translates as “ Bob Stays Cool”. Apparently it was a familiar slogan in The Netherlands and one my friend Stefan thought applied to me.
Mr. Untactical
Master Class
I think this boils down to the #1 question people should ask themselves when they begin to carry a firearm: Can I shoot and/or kill another human being?
For us "civilized" folks who grew up in the suburbs, served in the military outside of conflict, and generally have not had cause to fight our way out of a bad situation, it's a meaningful consideration. One reason training is so important is muscle memory. In the stress of a life-threatening situation, that is not the time to have to think about mechanics.
While I doubt I'll know how I will react when the old adrenal gland hits "dump," and I have to decide in milliseconds whether to unholster/shoot, all I can do is continue seeking quality - relevant - training, continue to practice mechanics on the daily, and (most important?) continue working on my situational awareness and staying out of sketchy places.
Case in point: My wife and I were driving home from TN yesterday where we had been visiting family on the farm. Great time of fellowship, food, and fun for the 4th holiday. It included a chance to put some rounds downrange with my nephew. And we even talked about this very subject.
Fast-forward to the drive home and we stopped at a convenience store to get a couple of things. There were no cars in the parking lot except for one - parked right in front of the door. Tricked out Chrysler 300 with jet black tint on the windows. I stopped the car a little way behind the other vehicle. My wife and I looked at each other and she asked, "Are you going in?" And I said, "No, are you?" I won't print her response.
We drove off. Maybe we were profiling, maybe it was the owner just checking on things over the holiday, or maybe, someone was inside just picking up some lotto tickets. Or maybe, someone was inside up to no good. We'll never know, but we went a couple blocks down the road to a populated store with no apparent issues... and made it home safely.
I was carrying concealed. My AL permit is honored in TN through reciprocity. But why risk it? To me, the best gunfight is the one that never happens, so I put a lot of effort into living with that mindset. If something (or somewhere) doesn't feel right - I'm outta there... before I have to think about drawing my firearm.
For us "civilized" folks who grew up in the suburbs, served in the military outside of conflict, and generally have not had cause to fight our way out of a bad situation, it's a meaningful consideration. One reason training is so important is muscle memory. In the stress of a life-threatening situation, that is not the time to have to think about mechanics.
While I doubt I'll know how I will react when the old adrenal gland hits "dump," and I have to decide in milliseconds whether to unholster/shoot, all I can do is continue seeking quality - relevant - training, continue to practice mechanics on the daily, and (most important?) continue working on my situational awareness and staying out of sketchy places.
Case in point: My wife and I were driving home from TN yesterday where we had been visiting family on the farm. Great time of fellowship, food, and fun for the 4th holiday. It included a chance to put some rounds downrange with my nephew. And we even talked about this very subject.
Fast-forward to the drive home and we stopped at a convenience store to get a couple of things. There were no cars in the parking lot except for one - parked right in front of the door. Tricked out Chrysler 300 with jet black tint on the windows. I stopped the car a little way behind the other vehicle. My wife and I looked at each other and she asked, "Are you going in?" And I said, "No, are you?" I won't print her response.
We drove off. Maybe we were profiling, maybe it was the owner just checking on things over the holiday, or maybe, someone was inside just picking up some lotto tickets. Or maybe, someone was inside up to no good. We'll never know, but we went a couple blocks down the road to a populated store with no apparent issues... and made it home safely.
I was carrying concealed. My AL permit is honored in TN through reciprocity. But why risk it? To me, the best gunfight is the one that never happens, so I put a lot of effort into living with that mindset. If something (or somewhere) doesn't feel right - I'm outta there... before I have to think about drawing my firearm.
A great article and some excellent replies and observations. My background is NJ Law Enforcement (retired 28 years), SWAT, instructor in Use of Force, Firearms, Def Tactics, etc. I retired from LE after 28 years and now teach firearms to citizens and law enforcement officers and agencies.
One of NJ's core principles for CCW Use of Force is using what is known as "constructive authority" which does allow a CCW holder to point a HG at another when there is "some justification". Pointing HG at a threatening person and using verbal commands or demonstrating that Deadly Force may be used, is not the same as using deadly force.
Without getting too far into the weeds here, there are many considerations that you need to account for such as the type of threat(s) and the proximity from the threat you are you are facing. While there is a legal requirement that "some justification" is necessary, if you point a HG at a person when it is not justified there may be legal consequences for the CCW holder such as an aggravated assault charge. Consider that there are CCTVs and cellphone cameras everywhere. What will they memorialize? Is your muzzle pointed at the threat well after they no longer pose a threat? Where's your trigger finger during all this? Who is behind the threat and in the path of the bullet?
Here's a scenario: You are at a gas station pump and witness a hold-up robbery at the nearby pump. The thug is armed with a brick and he just assaulted a neighboring gas-pumper, knocked him out and stole some property from his body. He approaches you and says "you're next". As he approaches, do you draw and issue verbal commands, possibly retreat a step or two? Or should you wait until he gets close and use your "cobra strike draw" and engage him with gunfire? Which response would you want the local DA/AP review for criminal prosecution? Remember that the case will typically be viewed as an assault or homicide first, and then the justification part comes after review. Verbal commands shouldn't be used if they expose the victim to danger but most states require that the use of deadly force is a "last resort". Wouldn't you want the witnesses, who will react to the sound of gunfire, state that they saw the shooting after they heard the verbal commands, rather than just hearing the gunfire and then witness the assailant falling and moaning?
Physical survival as well as survival in the legal system (criminal and civil), is incumbent upon possessing knowledge of laws, skill sets and situational awareness. Remember that most uses of self-protection of self or another incidents are reactive and not offensive. Preparation is a key facet, train properly. Do you always draw and then immediately fire your HG at a target? Are you developing a sympathetic response? Or, do you design drills to identify your target and then fire? This could be a simple as having someone call out a numbered, colored or shaped target before you shoot. Drawing your HG shouldn't be synonymous with firing. How about holstering? Do you draw, fire your HG and immediately holster? Maybe you should think about assessing your shot, observing what is happening around you, assessing the condition of your HG (reload, malfunction, etc) prior to holstering. How hard will it be for you to issue verbal commands after your life or family members life has been threatened? Should you train to this level, or wait until it really happens?
Train so that you will challenge yourself to think critically, legally, and test your skills for the threats you may face and in the environment that you will face them. Safely drawing from a holster is just the beginning.
One of NJ's core principles for CCW Use of Force is using what is known as "constructive authority" which does allow a CCW holder to point a HG at another when there is "some justification". Pointing HG at a threatening person and using verbal commands or demonstrating that Deadly Force may be used, is not the same as using deadly force.
Without getting too far into the weeds here, there are many considerations that you need to account for such as the type of threat(s) and the proximity from the threat you are you are facing. While there is a legal requirement that "some justification" is necessary, if you point a HG at a person when it is not justified there may be legal consequences for the CCW holder such as an aggravated assault charge. Consider that there are CCTVs and cellphone cameras everywhere. What will they memorialize? Is your muzzle pointed at the threat well after they no longer pose a threat? Where's your trigger finger during all this? Who is behind the threat and in the path of the bullet?
Here's a scenario: You are at a gas station pump and witness a hold-up robbery at the nearby pump. The thug is armed with a brick and he just assaulted a neighboring gas-pumper, knocked him out and stole some property from his body. He approaches you and says "you're next". As he approaches, do you draw and issue verbal commands, possibly retreat a step or two? Or should you wait until he gets close and use your "cobra strike draw" and engage him with gunfire? Which response would you want the local DA/AP review for criminal prosecution? Remember that the case will typically be viewed as an assault or homicide first, and then the justification part comes after review. Verbal commands shouldn't be used if they expose the victim to danger but most states require that the use of deadly force is a "last resort". Wouldn't you want the witnesses, who will react to the sound of gunfire, state that they saw the shooting after they heard the verbal commands, rather than just hearing the gunfire and then witness the assailant falling and moaning?
Physical survival as well as survival in the legal system (criminal and civil), is incumbent upon possessing knowledge of laws, skill sets and situational awareness. Remember that most uses of self-protection of self or another incidents are reactive and not offensive. Preparation is a key facet, train properly. Do you always draw and then immediately fire your HG at a target? Are you developing a sympathetic response? Or, do you design drills to identify your target and then fire? This could be a simple as having someone call out a numbered, colored or shaped target before you shoot. Drawing your HG shouldn't be synonymous with firing. How about holstering? Do you draw, fire your HG and immediately holster? Maybe you should think about assessing your shot, observing what is happening around you, assessing the condition of your HG (reload, malfunction, etc) prior to holstering. How hard will it be for you to issue verbal commands after your life or family members life has been threatened? Should you train to this level, or wait until it really happens?
Train so that you will challenge yourself to think critically, legally, and test your skills for the threats you may face and in the environment that you will face them. Safely drawing from a holster is just the beginning.
Your gas station scenerio that’s a forcible felony so Yes! Ut your also not wrong hitting him with hot sauce to see what happens again depends on Jurisdictions. If I am in Seattle visiting my Son I am armed but that’s one of the last places I really want to use deadly force!
Another scenerio that I have had a few times as an LEO that shoots holes I. (No pun intended) that whole “don’t draw it unless your gonna use it) I drew fully thinking I was going to have to shoot and the dynamics changed that quick it went from justified to iffy and thankfully I didn’t have to shoot!
Cognitive decision making is left out of most training programs.
While the folks that use to say that “don’t draw it unless you are gonna use it” ment well we have found out through the years that’s not always the best advice
Like we use to never use harnesses in deer stands or seatbelts in cars but when we say a whole lot of folks get jacked up we learned from it!!!