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Another Story in The Big City

Was this justified?

That's an impossible thing for any normal civilian to answer without actually being involved in some sort of trial where all the evidence is presented.

The mainstream media and social media have a way of making anyone look 100% guilty because all the facts are never presented and these stories are usually written to stir the most emotional reaction possible.

If anyone here can present the entire case minute by minute with facts to back up their opinions I'm all ears.

This is definitely an unfortunate event with the outcome being a life lost that can be never given back. Time will tell if this was murder or not but jumping gun on the innocent or guilty band wagon without all the facts just shows how ignorant our society has truly become to the law and towards each other.
 
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I'd like to have more information before I'd see if the guy was justified in putting on the choke hold.

Many years ago I put a choke hold on guy at the hospital I worked at as an EMT. I got called up to the mental ward part of the hospital and witnessed a 250+ guy slam an elderly lady against a wall and then push a man so hard he fell.

My instincts took over and I put him in a choke hold and held it until he calmed down and we escorted him back to the mental health ward where he was then administered a "mental health cocktail".

In my judgement, the guy I had to deal with was out to hurt people because he could have escaped without hurting the elderly lady and the gentleman he pushed. I thought he was going to go after a female nurse who was nearby also.

Choke holds are not allowed in most hospitals or mental institutions now, but back then(late 1990's) there wasn't much documentation outlawing their use.

I'm a martial arts guy and learned how to apply choke holds in the 1970's and still practice the technique sometimes. I prefer to use a Carotid choke now as opposed to restricting air flow with the traditional choke I was taught.

The thing is when you get somebody in a choke position bad things can happen because most people resist and in resisting the reaction from the person applying the choke is to put more pressure on the choke to get them to stop resisting.

BJJ(Brazilian Ju Jitsu) practicioners will usually try to get a person on the ground and dig their hooks(feet) in the person they're applying the choke hold to, which makes it harder for them to resist.

I learned how to do a Standing Choke Hold and then take the person to the ground. A Carotid choke is more safely applied from the side instead of being behind the person being choked. I have taught the Carotid choke to Advanced Martial Arts students and it's a safer hold but harder to get into the right position for it than the traditional Choke Hold, therefore a lot more training and practice is required to apply it with minimum damage to the person on the receiving end.

I wouldn't recommend most people applying a choke hold because too many bad things can happen when you apply it. In stressful situations sometimes instincts take over and a choke hold is applied when there might have been better options.

(A Brachial Stun comes to mind...and I've used that technique as a bouncer and it worked.)

In my opinion a Choke Hold is something you only use when there are no other options. And it should only be applied by somebody who knows what they are doing.

I've heard of people who were being choked having a heart attack from resisting and the stress of the hold. Many times a mental health patient has internal conditions that are not realized until they are put into a hold and their heart is under duress.
 
kenpomaniac1958 said:
I'd like to have more information before I'd see if the guy was justified in putting on the choke hold.

Many years ago I put a choke hold on guy at the hospital I worked at as an EMT. I got called up to the mental ward part of the hospital and witnessed a 250+ guy slam an elderly lady against a wall and then push a man so hard he fell.

My instincts took over and I put him in a choke hold and held it until he calmed down and we escorted him back to the mental health ward where he was then administered a "mental health cocktail".

In my judgement, the guy I had to deal with was out to hurt people because he could have escaped without hurting the elderly lady and the gentleman he pushed. I thought he was going to go after a female nurse who was nearby also.

Choke holds are not allowed in most hospitals or mental institutions now, but back then(late 1990's) there wasn't much documentation outlawing their use.

I'm a martial arts guy and learned how to apply choke holds in the 1970's and still practice the technique sometimes. I prefer to use a Carotid choke now as opposed to restricting air flow with the traditional choke I was taught.

The thing is when you get somebody in a choke position bad things can happen because most people resist and in resisting the reaction from the person applying the choke is to put more pressure on the choke to get them to stop resisting.

BJJ(Brazilian Ju Jitsu) practicioners will usually try to get a person on the ground and dig their hooks(feet) in the person they're applying the choke hold to, which makes it harder for them to resist.

I learned how to do a Standing Choke Hold and then take the person to the ground. A Carotid choke is more safely applied from the side instead of being behind the person being choked. I have taught the Carotid choke to Advanced Martial Arts students and it's a safer hold but harder to get into the right position for it than the traditional Choke Hold, therefore a lot more training and practice is required to apply it with minimum damage to the person on the receiving end.

I wouldn't recommend most people applying a choke hold because too many bad things can happen when you apply it. In stressful situations sometimes instincts take over and a choke hold is applied when there might have been better options.

(A Brachial Stun comes to mind...and I've used that technique as a bouncer and it worked.)

In my opinion a Choke Hold is something you only use when there are no other options. And it should only be applied by somebody who knows what they are doing.

I've heard of people who were being choked having a heart attack from resisting and the stress of the hold. Many times a mental health patient has internal conditions that are not realized until they are put into a hold and their heart is under duress.
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Any person with training in grappling arts can see that In the video of the incident the guy performing the choke hold is very inexperienced in the technique.
 
10mmLife said:
Any person with training in grappling arts can see that In the video of the incident the guy performing the choke hold is very inexperienced in the technique.
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I think sometimes people/students with little training think they're better than they really are at executing a technique, and either wind up getting hurt or hurting someone.

In the "old days" some instructors taught that it was easier to put a choke hold on someone who had been hit(kicked or punched) pretty hard, which sometimes created the opening to go in for the choke hold or some other type restraint.

(I used to use a low kick to the shin followed by a shoulder restraint type hold to walk people out of the bar I was working.) I was never a fan of full nelson type holds because it forced you to control a lot of their body. Plus if the bad guy is bigger than you, chances are a Full Nelson is going to be extremely difficult to apply.

Wrist locks look pretty in movies but are hard to do in real life scenarios because people's hands get sweaty and some people(especially women) have very flexible wrists and are difficult to put this type of control on.

I did use Elbow cranks or shoulder restraints(or arm bar - applied between the elbow and shoulder). Limb Destruction techniques from Escrima, sometimes work to get a violent person to cooperate. Leg kicks to the bad guys shin or hamstring work well also.

There's lots of different restraint techniques out there but it's best to focus on being able to do a few at a high level.

As a civilian, taking on the liabilities(criminal and civil) of trying to restrain a person is not something I'd recommend or encourage.

If you learn a restraint hold properly and get in a lot of reps you learn how to relax the hold once a person complies. You can "usually" feel a person relaxing once a hold is applied properly and you learn to relax the pressure while still being in position to apply pressure again if necessary.

We always teach students that when the hold has been applied(or they're in pain) to tap on the person's arm to let them they're in pain from the hold or to immediately stop the hold.

Every person is different(mentally and physically) so it takes years and lots of practice to be able to adjust a hold for the particular situation without causing permanent damage.
 
I'm holding off on judgement. No one knows the situation in the car beforehand and the dead guy was a confirmed 40x guest at the grey bar hotel. Once he broke an elderly woman's nose and orbital, on the train. The dude is a classic NY train psycho. Doesn't mean he deserved what he got, but it certainly puts into question things like AOC calling it a lynching (with no more info than anyone else has).

Interesting that the DA hasn't charged the 3 yet. They like to charge super fast in cases like this, but didn't this time. Maybe they have info that we don't..
 
Something always happens in the big city, doesn't it? It seems to me that a city without such events cannot be called a city heh.
 
There was a thread somewhere here about “detaining” folks. As a civilian as this shows it’s a slippery slope. Several issues here.

1 You can not predict the mental or health conditions so people period. This also means how they will react.

2 Folks have an issue with switching gears. After an initial “contact” one needs to adjust what they are doing if it isn’t working (and choking him into unconsciousness probably isn’t the best tactic.

3 As a civilian you have no obligation to “capture” anyone especially some random dude with a mental issue. If said person isn’t a threat (yelling random obscene stuff is not a threat) right then and there of serious bodily injury or death maybe you should just be a good witness. (Not to mention everyone is on so many cameras in NYC let alone the subway nowadays they’d ID and catch him in Short order)

4 speaking of cameras even outside of NYC everyone is
Videoing you on a cell phone so Don’t do things that cause Bad Optics.

I predict the young man will face charges. I’m sure the last thing he intended was for the guy to die but most folks are just not prepared for what really happens in most scenarios where they use force. They are not one dimensional most of the time.
 
Absolutely this will become a political football. I recommend reading Jason Whitlock's commentary about this event for a breath of reason. I read it on The Blaze (don't know how to make a link or I would).
 
Something always happens in the big city, doesn't it? It seems to me that a city without such events cannot be called a city heh. I like the fact that it's very much advertised on the Internet. I've even seen sites that help create a quiz with this kind of material. Seriously. It was something interesting and new to me. How often do you see this kind of thing? To be honest, it's the first time I've
 
OkiePewPew said:
I'm holding off on judgement. No one knows the situation in the car beforehand and the dead guy was a confirmed 40x guest at the grey bar hotel. Once he broke an elderly woman's nose and orbital, on the train. The dude is a classic NY train psycho. Doesn't mean he deserved what he got, but it certainly puts into question things like AOC calling it a lynching (with no more info than anyone else has).

Interesting that the DA hasn't charged the 3 yet. They like to charge super fast in cases like this, but didn't this time. Maybe they have info that we don't..
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I agree with you 100%, but if the MMA wannabe POS was in the wrong and using too much force for the situation how come the other passagers helped hold the unhinged guy down? From the video I didn't notice any of the other passagers coming to the guys defense. It appears several assisted in holding the guy down.
 
Back in the day when we were taught the sleeper hold we were taught that when the subject goes limp you stop. That occurs in 3-5 seconds with a properly applied carotid restraint. 30 seconds or more is too much. Some folks with cardiovascular disease are especially susceptible to stroke or blood clots from the sleeper hold. Heart attack from exertion is sometimes cause of death. You put pressure on the carotid arteries, NOT on the trachea. If done properly it is not a choking mechanism. As usual the media has misnamed it. A misapplied hold can damage the trachea and lead to asphyxiation. Too many things can go wrong with the sleeper hold with a struggling suspect which is why it is no longer taught or sanctioned. Although it is still used in the martial arts.

The media will enflame this event in their attempt to get a riot started. Burning buildings and police cars at peaceful protests make good TV.
 
Hammer67 said:
I'll just add this to the long list of reasons I stay far away from cities whenever possible.
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Or states, I hate when I have to go to the People's Republic of Massashistan, or as they so pompously call themselves "The Commonwealth", AKA "Mine is Mine, Yours is Also Mine". Simply passing the Welcome sign directly followed by a "don't do this or we fine you" threatening sign has the effect of instantly raising my blood pressure :D
 
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