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Capacity Over Caliber

Talyn

Talyn

SAINT
Founding Member
Part 1

These handy little rifles (or pistols) combine the stability of a carbine with the light recoil and affordability of pistol cartridges. Plus, unlike handguns, they offer a wider selection of optics, like red dot sights, and a greater variety of accessories. If you already own a handgun, adding a PCC to your collection might be a smart choice.

unclezo.com

Capacity Over Caliber - Uncle Zo

My updated opinion on the caliber vs capacity debate. Short version: there would be no debate if we detach emotion and put aside personal preferences as objective weapon selection naturally yields caliber for capacity.
unclezo.com unclezo.com

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Part 2

This debate is generally had in the context of self defense weapons. More often than not, the context specifically pertains to defensive pistols and defense against would be criminals.

With that in mind, let’s consider weapon selection.

unclezo.com

Capacity Over Caliber Part Deux - Uncle Zo

Every time I engage in the caliber vs capacity debate, I end up ruffling some feathers. The feather ruffling often yields conversations that challenge my opinion and help me grow. So, here we go again.
unclezo.com unclezo.com

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The issue is a LOT of folks have some super fantasy on how a situation will go. They have a Gear drives the mission mindset when it should be as the late Pat Rogers use to say the Mission should drive the gear.

With that a lot of folks also want to dress up with some type of an active shooter kit when odds are a robbery/car jacking or assault is done thousands of times a day over an active shooter situation. But robberies aren’t cool to train for! And a lot of folks have all that gear for a lethal force application but no OC spray which they are in much more cases where that would be “reasonable “ force but smoking them with that 21 round whatever the new hotness red dot handgun not so much but that’s another thread

If you don’t have to go to other people’s emergencies your probably alright if you choose that 5 shot J frame 6 shot K frame or 8,9 or 10 shot single stack auto.

The more important thing is what can you shoot and be proficient within reason of your scenerio. Shoot an 80 or above on the 5 yard round up and your good!

And for the ones that want to cherry pick a multiple armed gang scenario (like the recent Aurora CO apartment incident) sorry your not gonna take on 5-6 etc rifle armed folks and be successful. And the older I get the smaller the circle of people gets that I’m willing to die for!

Everyone’s free to do or make believe over what they want though.
 
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I'm in agreement with EC on this. This old, by now arguing about gun size, wonder nines (bc they are so fast, ahem) caliber etc. Haven't we all had enough? Uncle Zo doesn't bring anything new to the discussion. IPSC/IPDA users pick what they want and have proven, for a reason. The choice for professionals do the same. For self defense I suggest proving to yourself what works and stick with it. We all know the 3-3-3 by the FBI. It doesn't require a 34 cap mag to solve that puzzle. I can accurately use pretty much any caliber/cartridge of my choosing and be as accurate and fast. I've been timed. Folks with lots of training, large strong hands who are fast and accurate have a few more choices than other folks. Biology and build do play into some of this.
 
ECS686 said:
The issue is a LOT of folks have some super fantasy on how a situation will go. They have a Gear drives the mission mindset when it should be as the late Pat Rogers use to say the Mission should drive the gear.

With that a lot of folks also want to dress up with some type of an active shooter kit when odds are a robbery/car jacking or assault is done thousands of times a day over an active shooter situation. But robberies aren’t cool to train for! And a lot of folks have all that gear for a lethal force application but no OC spray which they are in much more cases where that would be “reasonable “ force but smoking them with that 21 round whatever the new hotness red dot handgun not so much but that’s another thread

If you don’t have to go to other people’s emergencies your probably alright if you choose that 5 shot J frame 6 shot K frame or 8,9 or 10 shot single stack auto.

The more important thing is what can you shoot and be proficient within reason of your scenerio. Shoot an 80 or above on the 5 yard round up and your good!

And for the ones that want to cherry pick a multiple armed gang scenario (like the recent Aurora CO apartment incident) sorry your not gonna take on 5-6 etc rifle armed folks and be successful. And the older I get the smaller the circle of people gets that I’m willing to die for!

Everyone’s free to do or make believe over what they want though.
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This. Frankly, the first round on Target will usually decide the outcome-esp for a civilian defending himself (and family). I’m not going out looking for trouble (and if you’re smart, you are not either). Grandson is a cop and he carry’s his issue high cap Glock and two spare high cap mags, BUT he is out looking for trouble and trying to stop it every shift. I understand he needs some firepower. Me, I’ll stick with a small single stack and one spare Mag, or a J and a speed strip. Do whatever makes you happy but don’t kid yourself about a “need” for dozens of rounds. YOU could dump a 20 rd Mag, but you’ll sure have a LOT of explaining to do once the smoke clears.
 
Shibadog said:
This. Frankly, the first round on Target will usually decide the outcome-esp for a civilian defending himself (and family). I’m not going out looking for trouble (and if you’re smart, you are not either). Grandson is a cop and he carry’s his issue high cap Glock and two spare high cap mags, BUT he is out looking for trouble and trying to stop it every shift. I understand he needs some firepower. Me, I’ll stick with a small single stack and one spare Mag, or a J and a speed strip. Do whatever makes you happy but don’t kid yourself about a “need” for dozens of rounds. YOU could dump a 20 rd Mag, but you’ll sure have a LOT of explaining to do once the smoke clears.
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What he said. Dump a 20 rd mag and you'll have a lot of Liability to answer to.
 
Carbines have the same advantages, and disadvantages that handgun cartridges in a longarm have had forever. Some love em some not so much.

I have always been a fan with ammunition compatability and increased capacity being the same pluses people have akways enjoyed. My .44 carbine and .44 revolver was a favorite combo. Now they are gone I want a .357 lever carbine and yes, now that I finally have a 9mm pistol I would like a 9mm carbine for it.
 
some really great links from an article on USCCA - check them out - note the % fatal rate per caliber listed on the buckeye firearms link

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

by Greg Ellifritz I've been interested in firearm stopping power for a very long time. I remember reading Handguns magazine back in the late 1980s when Evan Marshall was writing articles about his stopping power studies. When Marshall's first book came out in 1992, I ordered it immediately...
www.buckeyefirearms.org www.buckeyefirearms.org
www.pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Association of Firearm Caliber With Likelihood of Death From Gunshot Injury in Criminal Assaults - PubMed

Firearms caliber was associated with the likelihood of death from gunshot wounds in criminal assault. Shootings with larger-caliber handguns were more deadly but no more sustained or accurate than shootings with smaller-caliber handguns. This conclusion is of direct relevance to the design of...
www.pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
 
There was an incident in Memphis some years back. Parking lot of a large mall, BG tried to rob a man at gun point, victim drew his own weapon and dumped a 15 round mag into the BG, many after he was already down. Victim said he just panicked and kept pulling the trigger.
Loud uproar by local antis about excessive force. Grand jury refused to indict.
 
The Night Rider said:
Cite?
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There are several cases where the first 4 or whatever rounds were justified but the last few were not. And while not every case led to a criminal charge they all had a large portion of their Prosecutors pondering

You have to be able to constitutionally justify every round. And when you do use deadly force it’s investigated as a homicide or attempted homicide and as Darryl Bolke says it gets decided by a jury in a grand jury not of your peers to see if you and witnesses statements (and video that will most likely turn up showing your actions) articulated enough that there is a subsection in that penal code that justified your action.

But by all means go ahead and empty 15 or whatever rounds at someone that’s no longer a threat. They will figure it out for themselves!

Everyone is free to do what they think their career and bank account can handle!

A police shooting. By LAPD Officer Toni McBride was one. She shot a suspect with a knife 6 times the originally cleared her then the police merit commission said the first 4 shots were good but the last 2 were not. Also drug into it was her social media posts of video of her USPSA Grand Master runs at matches.

nationalpolice.org

LAPD Ofc. Toni McBride’s Shooting Incident: The Lethal Force Court Case That Shouldn’t Be, National Police Association

By Steve Pomper I’ve been writing that, in some high-profile (political) cases, it seems courts of law have replaced police disciplinary...
nationalpolice.org nationalpolice.org
 
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trader said:
What we are listing as a problem is the multiplicity of rounds fired, beyond what a reasonable person might do - this is the basis of prosecution. Remember you might win the day on the criminal charges being dropped, but will you win the civil case that comes after.
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You will if you're in a state that has pre-emption laws ( I am). You cannot be sued civily in a justified shooting.

I think the real reason most people that mag dump unnecessarily do it is fear and panic. Some of us wouldn't waste the ammunition.
 
Grayfox said:
There was an incident in Memphis some years back. Parking lot of a large mall, BG tried to rob a man at gun point, victim drew his own weapon and dumped a 15 round mag into the BG, many after he was already down. Victim said he just panicked and kept pulling the trigger.
Loud uproar by local antis about excessive force. Grand jury refused to indict.
Click to expand...
Looks like he got lucky.
 
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