The first one to get good hits on their opponent is overwhelmingly more likely to prevail in a gun fight. The slower your ability to draw, the less likely it will be you. Bad guys generally attack by surprise with weapon in hand. You're disadvantaged from the first instant. If you get a chance to counter-ambush, you have to be fast and accurate. If you have to fumble for a few seconds to dig your gun out of a jacket pocket, it may be like not having it at all. Of course, this will not always be true, but the need for speed is not rare in self defense scenarios, as Bassbob observed.
This....
I soent a lot of that boring lockdown shootibg with laser cartridges. Does not replace live fire, but it sure does augment it well.
Good question. I'm not trying to be dogmatic, or tell anyone they're not good enough. Just offering my two bits. Pick what you think is reasonable. I would choose a generous human sized torso target from about 5 yards. Something like the "bowling pin" area of a Transtar II target (includes the center and head area). Get shots on the middle bits from a modest, but not too easy, distance.To begin with, I don't disagree at all - rather, I'm in complete alignment with your outlook, @Ranger715
But something is missing....
What's the distance-to-target and the target size, in this metric?
As I'm fond of reminding anyone who asks it of me, I do not believe that metrics are fulfilled unless we have full accounting of (1) time, (2) distance, and (3) target [size].
This assumes that somehow quickly bringing a gun to play has taken the place of situational awareness and the knowledge of when it is legal and necessary to do so in the first place. Those two things aren't and shouldn't be mutually exclusive. It really doesn't have anything to do with how quickly you draw, rather whether you draw at all. That is completely your responsibility to figure out.^ Not trying to bait anything at all - I honestly just wanted a fuller picture of the metric that you were using.
And on a personal note, thank you for contributing to my list of range-drills.
And in reading your reply, the highlighted part also has me re-reading this thread a bit.....
I'm going to backtrack a little, here, as by the way I'm reading the more recent posts in this thread, I think there's a bit of divergence going on:
The way I'm reading these three posts above, there's two diverging paths that idea of "the draw" has taken on -
Initially, I believe what @KillerFord1977 wrote of is not necessarily related to either ease/speed-of-access or draw speed: rather, it is simply about the need to practice accessing and drawing the weapon - to bring what you are carrying with you, however you are carrying it, into the active fight.
He made no note of how fast he was able to get to the weapon - only that as he tried to access and bring the weapon into the fight, he encountered difficulties that he had not foreseen.
@Jfal 's reply takes in-fight access instead down another path: that of ease-of-accessibility and draw speed.
And while the last few posts after that, including my own reply, have focused on this portion of the question, I think that we should also take a step back for, as @Bassbob so wisely noted, not every lethal-force encounter is necessarily "won" by the "fast draw."
The Active Self Protection YouTube Channel hosted by John Correia is full of both instances where the fast-draw allowed the righteous defender to triumph as well as shows instances where such an attempt, made at the wrong time cost the defender dearly.
Indeed, the fast-draw is only one skill set, and arguably, one could make a very convincing case of it being perhaps the less important skill, versus the "softer" skill of being more situationally aware, so that either the gun does not have to come into play at all, or that it can be accessed earlier in the encounter.
Hmm. This particular aspect of the conversation is begging for me to write about 7 paragraphs detailing my thought processes about a lot of stuff that has very little to do with the actual original topic, other than metaphysically. However, I am not that good/quick at writing/typing. Particularly on this platform. True enough I was an English major 35 years ago and used to pride myself on writing A papers in the car on the way to school, but that was a long time ago. These days I need time to outline and proofread if I am going to create a dissertation. I am barely holding on to basic grammar rules and sentence structure at this point.
And that is situational awareness pure and simple.Hmm. This particular aspect of the conversation is begging for me to write about 7 paragraphs detailing my thought processes about a lot of stuff that has very little to do with the actual original topic, other than metaphysically. However, I am not that good/quick at writing/typing. Particularly on this platform. True enough I was an English major 35 years ago and used to pride myself on writing A papers in the car on the way to school, but that was a long time ago. These days I need time to outline and proofread if I am going to create a dissertation. I am barely holding on to basic grammar rules and sentence structure at this point.
Let's just say that the way it has always been for me, including pedestrian high school fist fights, is that the fight begins the second I know there is going to be a fight. I have never been the guy that talks shite. As soon as someone says something or acts some way that leads me to believe they are considering starting a fight with me, I hit them hard and first. And the second I know I am going to hit someone I am already lining them up. This is something that I had to overcome ( to a degree) when considering arming myself for personal protection. Or at least change the parameters somewhat. You have to shift from the mindset of immediate and overwhelming action to intensely scrutinizing the situation and making yourself mentally on the edge without immediate physical reaction.
None of which really changes the fact that if I decide to introduce deadly force to a situation it's a safe bet it needs to be immediate, barring a handful of situations one could imagine where having a gun in your hand, at some ready position, would be necessary or prudent. Though I will admit that having worked on the streets of north St. Louis for nearly a decade there were many times where my hand was on my gun in my holster long before anything around me got close to me.
I've been thinking a lot about appendix carry lately. I have resisted on the same ridiculous grounds ( You'll shoot your junk off) just on principle. It does seem like it would be faster though and I do possess unmovable trigger discipline. In any case if you shoot yourself drawing from 3:30 there's a fair chance you're bleeding out anyway.
I carry currently at 3:30 OWB however with my new revolver I’m thinking about IWB just left of my belt buckle for a cross draw, I’m right handed, that being said a lot of my training is trigger discipline and every time I draw my trigger finger is extended outside the T.G. So I don’t fear shooting myself.
Just an observation, as long as your elbow is good, 4:30-5:00 is supremely comfortable for sitting in a truck for long periods of time.
