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Facing the Active Killer

Talyn

Talyn

SAINT
Founding Member
Our media gives huge coverage to such events and more and more people seeking notoriety go on killing sprees. What will you do if you face an active killer and you’re all alone?

Regardless of your circumstances, it’s a good idea to decide now and make a plan.


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At the end of the day, we are responsible for ourselves and those we are authorized to defend. Jumping in depends greatly on many factors, not all of which we have the luxury of deciding beforehand. The author speaks of waiting for SWAT if it's a hostage situation, which sounds right. If it's not? What of another Uvalde, TX? So there are some things we need to think about, prepare for and train for before the event. We all know we now have many tens/hundreds of thousands of other countries criminals, nutz and gang members, courtesy of the Bureau. Also there are homegrown criminals and gangs. Do your best to be ready.
 
Spaulding always has great articles!

I will add and this is going to not be agreeable to several. Most normal Joes and Jane’s dream too much about being that Noble hero.

While nobody here wants to let something bad happen having a complicated scenario. As in more than a situation with shot at a known gunman in a food court is a little different than running into an unknown multiple story building by yourself

You can think you will run into someplace like that as a non LEO and you can think whatever you want however in reality it’s likely to not go well.

Also if you are a widow/widower or single parents are you REALLY ok with possibly leaving your child with one less or no parent at all????

There a lot more to the active shooter thing than the 1 dimensional scenario ls that most people come up with where everything in their mind goes perfect and they are always the victor!
 
I'm no cop and have no type of Police training. I'm just a average guy who carries a gun and is reasonably proficient with it.
I honestly don't know how I would react in an active shooter situation. But my thinking has always been that if I can at least make the shooter duck and focus on me, he won't be killing innocent people.
 
The guy who shot up the MacDonalds was a professional welder who called the emergency mental health hotline the day before his rampage, but they never called him back. Autopsy showed he had high levels of exotic metals in his brain, a probable result of technical welding, that likely contributed to his mental breakdown. It didn't help that LE was initially dispatched to the wrong MacDonalds

I was a SWAT commander for years and we did much training for such events. The Columbine event changed the way LE should respond to active shooters. Uvalde didn't get the training.

It is good for responders to know the facilities where it might occur.

In recent years I taught a course for businesses and government on surviving an active shooter. In preparation I studied mass killer events over a 100 year period. There are some commonalities.
1. Active shooters generally do not expect to survive the event
2. There will be an LE response, nowadays usually within 10 minutes. The shooter when confronted by LE will likely be killed by police, or commit suicide. But 10 minutes is an eternity.
3. Those present inside the event stand a better chance of surviving the attack if emergency procedures and facilities design can slow his attack. Survive 10 minutes and you will probably survive the event.
4. Run, Hide, Fight is taught and has some merit. Running gets you out of the kill zone and spoils his aim. Hiding removes you as a visible target. Fighting is a last ditch response but may be your only recourse. Things like fire extinguishers, fire axes, chairs, etc may make a difference if you bring them with violence of action. Hiding under a desk is not a workable plan.
5. Active shooters do not expect armed resistance. It is why they choose soft targets where victims are unarmed. An armed person present who is capable dramatically changes the dynamics. Whether you choose to intervene depends on circumstances.
6. If you are the armed person present, speed, power, and accuracy will determine the outcome. You want to get inside his OODA loop if you can. The rule of 3's is usually in play (3 rounds fired, 3 yards, 3 seconds). All the esoteric tactical stuff aside, THERE IS NO SUBSTITUE FOR MARKSMANSHIP. I have hostage targets that we use for quick head shots on the timer. A lot of good shooters are shocked when they miss and hit the hostage. It is good to know the limits of your skills so you know what you need to work on. Consistently hitting an eyeball sized target at 3 yards is a step in the right direction.
7. We should all pray to never experience such an event.
 
HayesGreener said:
The guy who shot up the MacDonalds was a professional welder who called the emergency mental health hotline the day before his rampage, but they never called him back. Autopsy showed he had high levels of exotic metals in his brain, a probable result of technical welding, that likely contributed to his mental breakdown. It didn't help that LE was initially dispatched to the wrong MacDonalds

I was a SWAT commander for years and we did much training for such events. The Columbine event changed the way LE should respond to active shooters. Uvalde didn't get the training.

It is good for responders to know the facilities where it might occur.

In recent years I taught a course for businesses and government on surviving an active shooter. In preparation I studied mass killer events over a 100 year period. There are some commonalities.
1. Active shooters generally do not expect to survive the event
2. There will be an LE response, nowadays usually within 10 minutes. The shooter when confronted by LE will likely be killed by police, or commit suicide. But 10 minutes is an eternity.
3. Those present inside the event stand a better chance of surviving the attack if emergency procedures and facilities design can slow his attack. Survive 10 minutes and you will probably survive the event.
4. Run, Hide, Fight is taught and has some merit. Running gets you out of the kill zone and spoils his aim. Hiding removes you as a visible target. Fighting is a last ditch response but may be your only recourse. Things like fire extinguishers, fire axes, chairs, etc may make a difference if you bring them with violence of action. Hiding under a desk is not a workable plan.
5. Active shooters do not expect armed resistance. It is why they choose soft targets where victims are unarmed. An armed person present who is capable dramatically changes the dynamics. Whether you choose to intervene depends on circumstances.
6. If you are the armed person present, speed, power, and accuracy will determine the outcome. You want to get inside his OODA loop if you can. The rule of 3's is usually in play (3 rounds fired, 3 yards, 3 seconds). All the esoteric tactical stuff aside, THERE IS NO SUBSTITUE FOR MARKSMANSHIP. I have hostage targets that we use for quick head shots on the timer. A lot of good shooters are shocked when they miss and hit the hostage. It is good to know the limits of your skills so you know what you need to work on. Consistently hitting an eyeball sized target at 3 yards is a step in the right direction.
7. We should all pray to never experience such an event.
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I work as a School Orotection Officer in my retired life. I also follow Ed Monk and train with Bolke and many others who has a lot of experience within the field

The issue with Uvalde is their little school corporation Police department had from all accounts fewer officers than they had schools. And waiting on a response has never kept the victim count below double digits

For whatever reason schools and communities fail to get the message that school corporations Police departments fail as does waiting on local beat cops to respond.

While the system I work for has a better program than most I wish all of them allow random staff to carry to shut down the event as other states do. I believe Texas calls it the guardian program.

Another thing is get away with state mandated LE qual courses in huge B27 targets with unrealistic large scoring zones that make people feel “awesome” and shoot B8 assessment drills and 3x5 cards.

If one can get 80 or more on a Justin Dyal Assessment then they will knock any state LE qual course out of the park!
 
ECS686 said:
I work as a School Orotection Officer in my retired life. I also follow Ed Monk and train with Bolke and many others who has a lot of experience within the field

The issue with Uvalde is their little school corporation Police department had from all accounts fewer officers than they had schools. And waiting on a response has never kept the victim count below double digits

For whatever reason schools and communities fail to get the message that school corporations Police departments fail as does waiting on local beat cops to respond.

While the system I work for has a better program than most I wish all of them allow random staff to carry to shut down the event as other states do. I believe Texas calls it the guardian program.

Another thing is get away with state mandated LE qual courses in huge B27 targets with unrealistic large scoring zones that make people feel “awesome” and shoot B8 assessment drills and 3x5 cards.

If one can get 80 or more on a Justin Dyal Assessment then they will knock any state LE qual course out of the park!
Click to expand...
Florida's School Guardian training includes 132 hours on the range with an emphasis on precision marksmanship. I am told that a large percentage cannot qualify.
 
When you work for the gov, or large financial institutions, there are mandatory drills and courses you must take for active shooter etc. HG presents a great collection of the training thought on these events. #4 specifically the Run, Hide, Fight is important to the vast majority of staff since they cannot be armed. If you fail these proscribed courses, a followup with mgmt and hr is mandatory. Inability to pass leads to dismissal. The mindset is all of these terrible situations is key - keep your wits about you, OODA might mean you look for your chance to survive. So called safe rooms/areas are sometimes available and they teach how to barricade the room etc. Run part is obvious, hide less so, and fight, well that my fellow Armory folks is up to you.
 
HayesGreener said:
Florida's School Guardian training includes 132 hours on the range with an emphasis on precision marksmanship. I am told that a large percentage cannot qualify.
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Paul Howe and Ed Monk have both mentioned they have ran 30 year cops that are SROs through their guardian programs and they got teachers that listened and qualified and the 30 year cops their department hid in the school failed often miserably.

We are separate from the merit Deouties but I convinced our Sherieff on the validity of the Bakersfield and he was a gun guy (he unfortunately passed away due to cancer this summer) but he required all the merit Deouties to shoot the Bakersfield once a month. There was some crushed egos as it was a wake up call. Some was time issues because of gear others were just lax shooting skills that were rubber stamped by the “no cop left behind” system where everyone passes the academy now!

Why I am a proponent of drills like Bakersfield, any of the Justin Dyal assessments if you had every cop that shot a perfect score I. Their state mandated B27 course run a couple of those shor10 or 20 round drills it would tell a different tale in what the real profeciency is!
 
trader said:
When you work for the gov, or large financial institutions, there are mandatory drills and courses you must take for active shooter etc. HG presents a great collection of the training thought on these events. #4 specifically the Run, Hide, Fight is important to the vast majority of staff since they cannot be armed. If you fail these proscribed courses, a followup with mgmt and hr is mandatory. Inability to pass leads to dismissal. The mindset is all of these terrible situations is key - keep your wits about you, OODA might mean you look for your chance to survive. So called safe rooms/areas are sometimes available and they teach how to barricade the room etc. Run part is obvious, hide less so, and fight, well that my fellow Armory folks is up to you.
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Those same government requirements stand in the way as well.

Lee Weems a very knowledgeable firearms guy mentioned in a pod cast a relative was a sheriff in Tennessee was asking for donations to get some tools for each school to secure the doors (forgive me I don’t remember the type) they got enough $$ to outfit what they needed but a Fire Ifficial I the county had to throw a flag and cause a delay because of an antiquated fire code issue.

The Sheriff got that BS rectified but had to do it himself with some help from folks that wanted to do the right thing

So you have those male Karen’s that are suppose to be helping but stand in the way because of an antiquated checklist!!!

Below is a sign on our weapons cleaning building ON THE RANGE at my last agency. The frustration is real
 

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I firmly believe we should be teaching fight, run, hide.
We know the shooter isn't epecting resistnace. We know interfering is the only think that will stop the shooter.
Yet we teach fight as the last resort
I think that leads to more deaths.
Deaths that I cannot have on my conscience.
If I am ever in a situation, I choose fight
 
PAGunGuy said:
I firmly believe we should be teaching fight, run, hide.
We know the shooter isn't epecting resistnace. We know interfering is the only think that will stop the shooter.
Yet we teach fight as the last resort
I think that leads to more deaths.
Deaths that I cannot have on my conscience.
If I am ever in a situation, I choose fight
Click to expand...
In a perfect world. A solid CQB response would end many of these attacks at the outset. Unfortunately the venues chosen by the shooters are weapons free, or those present are unable to fight, leaving running and hiding the sole options. The answer in schools is often Guardian officers, which works if they are properly selected and trained. The answer for our loved ones sadly is to avoid commonly targeted venues, and stay heeled if you go.
 
HayesGreener said:
In a perfect world. A solid CQB response would end many of these attacks at the outset. Unfortunately the venues chosen by the shooters are weapons free, or those present are unable to fight, leaving running and hiding the sole options. The answer in schools is often Guardian officers, which works if they are properly selected and trained. The answer for our loved ones sadly is to avoid commonly targeted venues, and stay heeled if you go.
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The trained and selected part is the buggiest issue.

I say this all the time a state mandated qual on B27’s prove nothing. If they can’t shoot an 80 or above in a Bakersfield or any assessment drills on B8’s they shouldn’t be hired JMHO

Also if they can’t physically spring 100 yards or get to cover 20 yards away in a reasonable time they should not be hired as someone for a primary protective role!
 
HayesGreener said:
In a perfect world. A solid CQB response would end many of these attacks at the outset. Unfortunately the venues chosen by the shooters are weapons free, or those present are unable to fight, leaving running and hiding the sole options. The answer in schools is often Guardian officers, which works if they are properly selected and trained. The answer for our loved ones sadly is to avoid commonly targeted venues, and stay heeled if you go.
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I'd say it depends on the situation. In an elementary school, sure, fighting might not be an option, when there might only be one adult in the immediate area. In a church, mall, Walmart, a few unarmed, full-size adults (big teenagers) can stop a shooter. It happens. It has worked.
 
What will you do if you face an active killer and you’re all alone?
I'm alone, no family to protect, now my cow not my cowpie. Un-@$$ the A.O. Report to the authorities, give as much detail as I can. Be a good witness. Now all would be hero's feel free to jump all over me ;)
 
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