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Florida Constitutional Carry

ECS686 said:
I would respectfully disagree on the common sense part. After 33 years of LE and teaching there (to include FLETC) I teach private classes for firearms as a retirement gig. From basic new folks to some how to carry classes and some of what I see.

Many people think having a gun will immediately ward off any evil spirits.

You would also be surprised how much time I have to spend on dispelling really really bad thought processes. Much very antiquated and much just bad advice (usually from relatives and TV shows) that will end in a murder charge.

I wish more people would take a vetted course on firearms from a reputable place that doesn’t use pictures of their “war belts” and tricked out John Wick guns to draw the attendees!

Also look for instructors that continue to go to classes themselves. I hosted Tom Givens Rangemaster for our crew and we learned a lot with that excellent program. One of our folks is even a Gunsite Rangemaster and he even learned some stuff. So if they are Rangemaster or Gunsite that is a plus

(Disclaimer I’m not saying trainings should be mandated just simply saying folks have no clue how much they would benefit and they should want to a couple times)
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Amen brother
 
ECS686 said:
I would respectfully disagree on the common sense part. After 33 years of LE and teaching there (to include FLETC) I teach private classes for firearms as a retirement gig. From basic new folks to some how to carry classes and some of what I see.

Many people think having a gun will immediately ward off any evil spirits.

You would also be surprised how much time I have to spend on dispelling really really bad thought processes. Much very antiquated and much just bad advice (usually from relatives and TV shows) that will end in a murder charge.

I wish more people would take a vetted course on firearms from a reputable place that doesn’t use pictures of their “war belts” and tricked out John Wick guns to draw the attendees!

Also look for instructors that continue to go to classes themselves. I hosted Tom Givens Rangemaster for our crew and we learned a lot with that excellent program. One of our folks is even a Gunsite Rangemaster and he even learned some stuff. So if they are Rangemaster or Gunsite that is a plus

(Disclaimer I’m not saying trainings should be mandated just simply saying folks have no clue how much they would benefit and they should want to a couple times)
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I agree with all that. I also believe that anyone who chooses to carry a gun should seek training and participate in continuing courses. That said, safely and legally handling firearms can really be boiled down to a couple common sense concepts. Namely the 4 gun safety rules we all know and love and brandishing or using a gun only when an innocent life is being threatened. There are endless nuances and circumstances we could discuss inside those parameters but the fact is if you adhere to the gun safety rules and refrain from pointing a gun at someone who isn’t a threat that’s going to eliminate 99% of AD, ND and inappropriate use of firearms.
 
Keystone19250 said:
I agree on the media as they would jump all over gun purchases made by people uneducated in the proper use of firearms, my comment was about people themselves not reporting ND’s or AD’s where no one was hurt so as to not involve law enforcement.
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I feel people that have ND's or AD's without injury would most likely not report themselves in 2a restricted or 2a unrestricted states either way.

There's not many people that are willing to take on a potential legal fault by reporting on themselves if no physical harm was a result of their own negligence.
 
The Night Rider said:
My experience has been that all the firearms safety you need to know can be taught in five minutes or not at all. If you don’t grasp the 4 rules in that time you never will.

I have never purchased a brand new firearm that didn’t come with an instruction manual and most firearms companies will send you one for free. As was stated up thread, if the shooter didn’t take the basic precaution of reading that manual before loading the firearm all the safety in the world wouldn’t have sunk in.

Several states require absolutely no training or demonstration of competency what so ever. You do not even have to demonstrate that you have ever even fired a gun before being issued a permit. All you have to do is pay the fee and submit to a background check and you walk out the door legal to carry a concealed firearm.

So, if state mandated training is so important to the safety of the gun carrying public why don’t we have disproportionately higher firearms accident (not willful negligence or criminal misuse but accidents) rates in those states?
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Agreed!

I'm in NH where everyone has here has the right to constitutional carry and there is no great threat here of uneducated firearms owners going hog wild because of lack of training. When you restrict the population and then convince them that they need to meet X, Y, Z standards to be a competent enough adult to own a firearm you only reinforce the idea that 2a rights should be a restricted privilege reserved for a certain class.

I always advise anyone I speak with that is not experienced with firearms to seek professional training or at least do some research on the subject of proper firearms safety and storage to avoid possible legal ramifications.
 
HayesGreener said:
Florida is on the fast track for constitutional carry. The first bill was entered Monday and there is already much gnashing of teeth and renting of garments from the Left.

Up until this law is enacted, concealed carry in Florida requires a license, which requires a background investigation and proof of some safety training.

I have been an instructor for 50+ years and trained many for various licenses. When doing the concealed weapons course I was impressed by the misconceptions among students about law, and utter lack of knowledge of firearms safety and use. Of course it was my job to correct that.

Now that the license is going away, which in my view is a good thing in the context of the 2nd Amendment, there is to be no training requirement.

Firearm safety and knowledge of the law are individual responsibilities. However, with no training my concern is over increased negligent discharges or inappropriate use of firearms by unfettered arming.

For those states that have historically had constitutional carry, what are your thoughts?
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I suspected Hayes had some instructional experience… Thanks to all of you that do because from what I’ve witnessed via personal training, instructor certification, competition and instructing others, there is a decided need for folks “who have/stow/transport/carry a gun” to pursue an education in the safe use and proficiency of it/them. I moved from the desert of West Texas 4 years ago, obtained my instructor’s certification and began working with a Security Team from a local church. There were 15 “members/interested parties” of that group initially and I was ASTOUNDED that out of this bunch of country boys (that I assumed were weaned with a pistol in one hand and a bottle in the other) only two of them could come close to passing basic handgun proficiency drills. On top of that, most of them (after embarrassing themselves in practice sessions) were not even motivated to work toward improvement, i.e., come back to practice! After a year, I pared their numbers down to 5 who WERE serious about gun handling and continue to work with them. Moving on to the point, I believe that any mentally stable, law abiding citizen in this country should have unrestricted access to arms…I believe that’s what the Founders had in mind when they scribed the 2nd Amendment. I also believe that the skill required to safely deploy a firearm is not an innate. I would HOPE that folks would WANT to acquire sage advice from a seasoned instructor regarding manipulation and proficiency in the use of them… BUT, this is not what I see day-to-day. I’ve seen some very scary things happen around folks wielding guns and I’m certain I’m not the only one. My only reservation, or better put, my concern with regard to Constitutional Carry is that folks are even LESS inclined to pursue training than they are when licensing is required. What can I do about that? Not much. Just continue, I think to offer help to those that want it…so, I guess I’ll have to be content with that.
 
Katadin4570 said:
I suspected Hayes had some instructional experience… Thanks to all of you that do because from what I’ve witnessed via personal training, instructor certification, competition and instructing others, there is a decided need for folks “who have/stow/transport/carry a gun” to pursue an education in the safe use and proficiency of it/them. I moved from the desert of West Texas 4 years ago, obtained my instructor’s certification and began working with a Security Team from a local church. There were 15 “members/interested parties” of that group initially and I was ASTOUNDED that out of this bunch of country boys (that I assumed were weaned with a pistol in one hand and a bottle in the other) only two of them could come close to passing basic handgun proficiency drills. On top of that, most of them (after embarrassing themselves in practice sessions) were not even motivated to work toward improvement, i.e., come back to practice! After a year, I pared their numbers down to 5 who WERE serious about gun handling and continue to work with them. Moving on to the point, I believe that any mentally stable, law abiding citizen in this country should have unrestricted access to arms…I believe that’s what the Founders had in mind when they scribed the 2nd Amendment. I also believe that the skill required to safely deploy a firearm is not an innate. I would HOPE that folks would WANT to acquire sage advice from a seasoned instructor regarding manipulation and proficiency in the use of them… BUT, this is not what I see day-to-day. I’ve seen some very scary things happen around folks wielding guns and I’m certain I’m not the only one. My only reservation, or better put, my concern with regard to Constitutional Carry is that folks are even LESS inclined to pursue training than they are when licensing is required. What can I do about that? Not much. Just continue, I think to offer help to those that want it…so, I guess I’ll have to be content with that.
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I was assigned in San Angelo in 07-08. Shot cowboy action nearly every weekend. Lots of gun guys out there.
 
HayesGreener said:
I was assigned in San Angelo in 07-08. Shot cowboy action nearly every weekend. Lots of gun guys out there.
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Indeed! I shot cowboy action for several years in Midland until I became jaded by the fact that if you could shoot fast enough, you could win despite considerable misses… That’s when I went down the road to IDPA. I was never “quick like rabbit,” but I was accurate. I thought everyone should be. However, I had a lot of fun while engaged in the sport.
 
Bassbob said:
Anyone who thinks a CCW class in any way resembles usable handgun training is in a mental institution.
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Agreed. It’s a state mandate and they have either show up and get a prize or minimum standards. With minimum standards a CCWclass is like getting a drivers license. Everyone had to pass a test yet look at a large percentage of drivers.

Passing a test once DOES NOT equal Proficiency….routinely practicing does!
 
So, I’ve got two minds on CC.

The first one is that CC is correct; charging a fee to have training & having to get a license is a poll tax, pure and simple.

However:

I also strongly believe that concurrent with rights come responsibilities. And unlike most other rights, when people ignorantly misuse their 2A rights, it tends to get others hurt, or worse. So…how does responsibility get enforced?

By requiring one learn the laws and show they are basically proficient before they can carry a weapon in public.

Which, again, is a poll tax…

Loop ad nauseum.
 
HansGruber said:
So, I’ve got two minds on CC.

The first one is that CC is correct; charging a fee to have training & having to get a license is a poll tax, pure and simple.

However:

I also strongly believe that concurrent with rights come responsibilities. And unlike most other rights, when people ignorantly misuse their 2A rights, it tends to get others hurt, or worse. So…how does responsibility get enforced?

By requiring one learn the laws and show they are basically proficient before they can carry a weapon in public.

Which, again, is a poll tax…

Loop ad nauseum.
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IMHO The responsibility gets enforced just like anything Else does, if you “misuse” your 2A protected rights (I.e. you infringe on the rights of others) you face legal consequences (imprisonment, fines, etc..,).

This idea that we need to pursue a preemptive doctrine on the exercise of natural rights is crazy. No one has to take classes or demonstrate language proficiency to exercise their right to free speech.
 
If you watch this video at about the 3-minute mark John Wayne decides to "teach" Mississippi how to shoot. The only real instruction that John Wayne gives him is you got to draw and shoot fast against somebody else who's doing the same thing. Mississippi fails miserably and John Wayne declares that trying to teach him to shoot is "useless".

And it seems like that's what Hollywood and Society in general do. They make it sound like properly shooting a firearm is some voodoo that can only be done by a Master of The Force.

On the other side of the coin there's also this idea that any real man should be able to pick up a gun and shoot it.

People believe what they see on TV. I remember reading an article from back in the days when ER was a television show. According to the article whenever the doctors on ER intubated somebody they did it the exact same way every time and they did it wrong every time. What ended up happening was there starting to be a trend of real doctors in real Emergency Rooms screwing up entubating people because they were mimicking what they saw on ER.
I think that's what happens in the real world people mimic what they see on TV in regards to gun handling as well.


ETA Whoops,wrong video
 
Net Engineer said:
IMHO The responsibility gets enforced just like anything Else does, if you “misuse” your 2A protected rights (I.e. you infringe on the rights of others) you face legal consequences (imprisonment, fines, etc..,).

This idea that we need to pursue a preemptive doctrine on the exercise of natural rights is crazy. No one has to take classes or demonstrate language proficiency to exercise their right to free speech.
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However: it’s a lot harder to kill someone with words than it is with a gun, no?
 
HansGruber said:
However: it’s a lot harder to kill someone with words than it is with a gun, no?
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There's still legal consequences for saying the wrong thing in public such as a threat.

2A is also a right not a privilege that shall not be infringed according to the constitution. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Murder is obviously not a right so no matter how it's done it's still illegal. To imply the second amendment is there for murder is ludicrous.
 
HansGruber said:
I bet they used guns to do the actual killing though…
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And before guns and still currently, words are used to condemn people to death by blade and stone amongst other things.

Not sure what the point to your statement means as it does not really contain any relevant information to the subject nor an opinion on the topic other than to just blanket challenge someone else's statement.

Can you provide more context to your post so it's a little more clear as to what is being said?
 
Net Engineer said:
IMHO The responsibility gets enforced just like anything Else does, if you “misuse” your 2A protected rights (I.e. you infringe on the rights of others) you face legal consequences (imprisonment, fines, etc..,).

This idea that we need to pursue a preemptive doctrine on the exercise of natural rights is crazy. No one has to take classes or demonstrate language proficiency to exercise their right to free speech.
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No one that I have read ever mentioned “Mandating” training it’s just most folks would benefit a lot more than they realize. Simply having a firearm doesn’t mean you’re safe. Most of Tom Givens data is most folks had he “I can’t believe it’s happening to me” training can help with how to react as well as how to better employ and more important WHEN NOT TO SHOOT.

Unlike other constitutional rights when you do the 2nd a wrong (point a loaded weapon or shoot the wrong person) it goes really really bad for the person.
 
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