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Is this for real?

It's amazing the different mind sets included here, most based on age I presume. Some few mention the infringement on our freedoms, some mention similar items already available, some mention LE capabilities, some even mention just how simple and easy it will be to 'over ride/write' it, and some even talked about it would be a simple chip change out (???). I'm not saying any of these opinions are wrong, only how they differ and how the ultimate outcome and results might differ.

Most of this thread folks like me at our age don't even understand the conversation, much less the validity of such a system. To me, I would oppose it in every legal way. No need to even argue/debate any value to society in it as far as I'm concerned ..... it's a restriction on the rights of free and freedom loving Americans. I'll even agree there might be some relative societal value, but the cost to our freedom is simply too great.

Over the years I've been on this dirt ball I've seen probably more advances in technology than the vast majority on the forum ..... most for the better, but some for the worst. Two very well noted instances known to most of the firearm owners of the country are the NFA of 1934 and the GCA of 1968 just to name a couple. These were both argued in "The name of public safety". I'm not sure public safety has been increased at all since either of them were passed, are you? And these two are concerning just our love and enjoyment of firearms. Be very concerned about any loss or restrictions to the freedoms we love. What might begin as a simple, seemingly meaningless restriction at some point may become another complete loss of some personal and/or societal freedom.

Always remember these words of wisdom which have been proven time after time by gov't after gov't:

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
William Pitt the Younger
 
RickAnderson said:
Have you ever priced the Auto Manufacturers tool to install software updates? Its almost the price of a new car. Have you heard how they have idiot proofed it to the point they are unusable for anything except the manufacturer intended procedures.

Even the reversed engineer devices are extremely expensive.....

So while its possible, its not as simple as you say...

And you do realize that every manufacturer has encrypted security with data logging on their vehicle networks and devices.... ....which complicates and makes more expensive doing these overwrites with different software or data tables... ...and if you do it, there will be record you can't erase the Manufacturer will find if you make a warranty claim, which will be denied and warranty voided for changing the software...

I have been screaming for years, there needs to be legislation to define the software rights of vehicles owners that is being horribly abused by the Manufacturers..... ....what do we get instead, proposed kill switches....

So I'm with you, but I don't think its as easy and cheap as your saying, and lots of folks who try it are likely going to end up with voided warranties...
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Never said it was simple, that’s why it’ll take an OSS project to do it right, hundreds or thousands of developers working on it worldwide. However any software problem can be cracked with time, effort and brains and now we have AI tools to make it easier (e.g. openAI and ChatGPT)

As far as how the Manufacturers will react, yes they’re likely to void warranties or possibly sue and government will stick their snouts in too over emissions controls and safety, but IMHO that doesn’t mean it won’t be done. It’s an attractive project from a number of perspectives, the challenge, sticking a finger in the eye of government and big corps, things the generally libertarian OSS community loves doing.
 
Recusant said:
Makes me want to stick with my 2002 Ford Ranger until it's found on the road dead!
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One of the reasons I bought a 1996 Ford F150 regular cab(300 cc inline 6, 5 speed manual, fuel injection, 150 downhill horsepower) was the simplicity and reliability.

When I first bought it a few years ago I put a lot of money getting to where it wouldn't need much for a while(new clutch, new brakes, new tires, new motor mounts, new front end parts).

I not only did this because I knew once I did, it would save me money over the long run and it would be a almost perfect truck for the flat roads of South Texas(I was living in North Little Rock, Arkansas at the time...:)

So far my instincts have been right about the 1996. I've had it down here for almost 2 years and aside from basic maintenance like oil changes and new wiper blades, it hasn't needed much. I also replaced the fuel filter which is a good idea to do once a year or so and on a 1996 F150 and is a 15 minute job and $15-$20 part...:)

I get asked pretty often if I want to sell my truck and I always politely decline. I enjoy driving a manual transmission and the feel of an old truck...:) I only put about 200-400 miles a month on him, sometimes less....:) He gets about 13 mpg in the city and about 17-18 mpg on the highway...:)
 
Sld1959 said:
Most of the engine control software is writtten on chips. You can almost bet that as soon as this comes out there will be aftermarket chips offered as replacements just like they offer chips for better horse power, better mileage etc. Probably even by the OEM manufacturer. It would be just too big a market to ignore.
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Today, most of the software is stored in Chips, on EPROM. The early days was hard wired chips and aftermarket performance was literally replacing chips on boards. Today it is software, stored on a chip and not some sort of hard drive, that is uploaded and written to the chips from other chips. The chips hardwired to do the writing to other chips are controlled as much as possible to keep them out people's hands so that the Auto Manufacturer's maintain their leverage on the market.

The Performance Aftermarket has reversed engineered or gotten their hands on the necessary chips to off products to write changes or all new software to the Electronic Control Modules on some popular cars.
 
As stated by net engineer. They have the EPA. You can't do diddly squat with programming and chips anymore. Get caught defeating emissions controls, 10k fine plus confiscation, towing and storage until it's restored to factory. Now say, "well we don't have emissions testing here. " You're going to have to renew your plates. They'll just make you come in for a "quick scan" to make sure your vehicle has not been tampered with before issuing a sticker. Now say," I wanna keep my old Ford running" the new shenanigans is to destroy rebuildable cores for gov't money. You might remember this as cash for clunkers. Now they do it on heavy trucks, ag and off-road equipment. If any of us knew what our tax dollars actually pay for and subsidize... it's disgusting.
I've also read, on some higher end euro cars, you subscribe to the mfr for your options now. You want auto temp control, heated seats, that'll be $12/mo. Oh you want stability control and hill assist brakes, another $20. So for "them" to shut you down, it's already there. It's just been mandated to be available in 5 years for all mfrs.
Hopefully DOT and NHTSA get involved. As mentioned, these actions could result in unintended consequences.
 
Funwithfuel said:
As stated by net engineer. They have the EPA. You can't do diddly squat with programming and chips anymore. Get caught defeating emissions controls, 10k fine plus confiscation, towing and storage until it's restored to factory. Now say, "well we don't have emissions testing here. " You're going to have to renew your plates. They'll just make you come in for a "quick scan" to make sure your vehicle has not been tampered with before issuing a sticker. Now say," I wanna keep my old Ford running" the new shenanigans is to destroy rebuildable cores for gov't money. You might remember this as cash for clunkers. Now they do it on heavy trucks, ag and off-road equipment. If any of us knew what our tax dollars actually pay for and subsidize... it's disgusting.
I've also read, on some higher end euro cars, you subscribe to the mfr for your options now. You want auto temp control, heated seats, that'll be $12/mo. Oh you want stability control and hill assist brakes, another $20. So for "them" to shut you down, it's already there. It's just been mandated to be available in 5 years for all mfrs.
Hopefully DOT and NHTSA get involved. As mentioned, these actions could result in unintended consequences.
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You're right about that. No doubt enough of us have lathes and mills to produce our own replacement parts to keep our older, uncommunist vehicles on the road for awhile, but eventually we'll die or get too old and that sort of ingenuity will pass away. The dumbing down of society ensures that. And I ain't even talking about controlling the fuel. When the government decides we are no longer to have unfettered access to transportation they already possess the means to take it away.
 
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Bassbob said:
You're right about that. No doubt enough of us have lathes and mills to produce our own replacement parts to keep our older, uncommunist vehicles on the road for awhile, but eventually we'll die or get to old and that sort of ingenuity will pass away. The dumbing down of society ensures that. And I ain't even talking about controlling the fuel. When the government decides we are no longer to have unfettered access to transportation they already possess the means to take it away.
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You make good points but honestly with all the looming fiscal and monetary issues we’re facing in the short to medium term I believe access to transportation is going to end up being the least of our problems.😕
 
It's all about boot placement. Whether it's the back of yer head or your throat, either way your being oppressed. But that word seems to be reserved for certain demographics.
Look at all the things that all the alphabet agencies are implementing, then look at the grand scheme of things. We, as a society, are being fattened up and kept dumb then led by the nose like hogs to slaughter.
But hey, I'm just some paranoid tin foil hat wearing kook.
 
How does defeating a kill switch effect emissions?
There is CARB exempt status, this is how you get all sorts of aftermarket engine parts, because the modification has been proven not make the engine fail emissions....
But you wouldn't need that, because defeating a kill switch wouldn't affect emissions.

Yes, we can go round and round, that it requires modifying engine control software, and how OBD is setup, any change in engine controller software nullifies of the certification, see carb exempt, so it might not even touch engine controller software, it might have to, all depends.

Like I said before, its likely a proposed requirement for a physical connection, and protocol in the vehicle network to have provisions for a kill switch that could be easily installed. Like plug and play for breathalyzers or kill switches for debtors that need to reposses your car.

That could be done through the vehicles anti-theft system, that is an integrated system using several components communicating over the network. So the manufacturer could come up with a solution that had nothing to do with the engine software. It may be no different than a second Ignition/Starter Switch. Or it could be in the engine controller or multiple controllers that would need software changed.

But like I said before it, it might just be provisions for installing a kill switch cheaply, thus you would never need to defeat a kill switch, you just need to avoid installing one.

That is what we have now, no kill switches, but they are gaining popularity being installed aftermarket, for people that gladly except it because they screwed up somehow and are bad risk for DUI or giving a car loan, so they except the kill switch because, otherwise they can't drive at all or can't get the loan. The proposal (if its really an honest proposal) is just make new cars be able to have a cheap kill switch that can be installed in 2 minutes for 1/10th of the cost it is now.

If it turns out, the proposal is an actual real kill switch installed in every vehicle, that government can gain access to and disable any persons vehicle at anytime, then yea, we are talking government over reach of an epic scale. Reporters being an uncurious and particularly dull kind of people, never thought to ask about this, as they gladly reported a politician is proposing a bill to make all cars being produced with a kill switch....
 
Around 10 maybe 12 years ago, a couple of smart kids approached chrysler with a glitch that they found. What they proceeded to demonstrate was that they could take control of a vehicle on the highway at any time. They used a simple laptop and a Wi-Fi connection. Had a buddy driving a grand Cherokee on a closed road with go-pros on streaming. First they demonstrated how they could control HVAC, wipers, radio controls and windows. Then they went on to show how they could take "total control " of the vehicle. They had engine control, transmission control and brakes. What scared Chrysler, iirc, was when they were steering the vehicle. They did all this by backdooring the GPS. Once they had the "handshake " they could control everything via the CANBUS. Everything in modern vehicles runs on the CAN. Steering was the last to get wiper motors attached whete the hydraulic unit used to be. Chrysler was so upset, they hired the kids to consult and counter software hacking. This was documented in either popular mechanics or motortrend. I can't say for sure.
 
Funwithfuel said:
Around 10 maybe 12 years ago, a couple of smart kids approached chrysler with a glitch that they found. What they proceeded to demonstrate was that they could take control of a vehicle on the highway at any time. They used a simple laptop and a Wi-Fi connection. Had a buddy driving a grand Cherokee on a closed road with go-pros on streaming. First they demonstrated how they could control HVAC, wipers, radio controls and windows. Then they went on to show how they could take "total control " of the vehicle. They had engine control, transmission control and brakes. What scared Chrysler, iirc, was when they were steering the vehicle. They did all this by backdooring the GPS. Once they had the "handshake " they could control everything via the CANBUS. Everything in modern vehicles runs on the CAN. Steering was the last to get wiper motors attached whete the hydraulic unit used to be. Chrysler was so upset, they hired the kids to consult and counter software hacking. This was documented in either popular mechanics or motortrend. I can't say for sure.
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It was a Jeep Cherokee, not the Grand Cherokee that is a totally different vehicle.
It was a security flaw/bug in the software that did the remote updating and checking of the modules on the CAN Bus.
They could hack in like they were Chrysler trying to read the OBD codes or update software remotely over the Vehicle Wi-Fi optional connection, then able to send CAN bus message over the CAN Network.
Chrysler was able to fix the flaw/bug in minutes, but took months to get the software updated in all the vehicles they produced.
The Chief Engineer for the Cherokee was fired because of how screwed up and rushed all the software integrated componentry was rushed and under tested/developed creating all sorts of horrible problems for the company. The biggest was the new ZF 9 speed Transmission software. That Fiat/Chrysler decided not to pay ZF to develop the software implimentation and instead elected to do it themselves. For 3 months parking lots filled with completed Cherokees, that couldn't be sold as they waited for the software for the transmissions to be completed, and even then the software was destroying the transmission for the next 2 years when it was finished.

The Hackers could send CAN commands to the Lane Keeping Feature and the ABS.... ....meaning they could get the steering wheel to bump a couple of degrees for a moment or get your brakes to chirp for a few seconds to slow you down.... ...so while it was possible they get your car off course or lurch with a momentary application of brakes, they really couldn't drive your car...
 
I'm fairly certain the technology already exists. I've seen YouTube videos where the police have been chasing a car that was equipped with OnStar and OnStar shut the car off for them.

This is secondhand and I have no way of verifying it but

I used to work with a guy who had been a Chevy dealer. He said that (assuming you have the software installed) OnStar had the capability of shutting down your car whether you were a subscriber or not. According to him they could also locate your car.

I buy all my cars used and I will not ever purchase a car that has internet connectivity.

Having said that, my personal opinion is that at some point they'll simply abolish private ownership of automobiles to combat "Global Warming".
 
Recusant said:
My son was involved in a case where his department was searching for a rapist. It came to their attention that perhaps this guy had also kidnapped a young woman off of a street in Philadelphia in the middle of the night. From a security camera picture it was determined that the car that the kidnapper used in Philly had a Va state inspection sticker on the windshield. It soon became apparent that same man was probably responsible for both crimes. Soon it was determined that the car he was driving had a tracker placed on it by the car lot that had sold it to a family member. The car lot folks activated the tracker and within an hour LE in Maryland had arrested the kidnapper/serial rapist and had freed the young woman who had been grabbed off the street in Philadelphia. True story.
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But what is your point in telling the story?

Would you be okay with having a surveillance device on your car?
 
The Night Rider said:
Having said that, my personal opinion is that at some point they'll simply abolish private ownership of automobiles to combat "Global Warming".
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They’re already going that direction in Europe with vehicle subscription based programs. It’s the next evolution of the lease based model, you don’t own the vehicle you basically rent it.

As far as “Global warming” goes they’re handling that by slowly but surely eliminating the availability of ICE vehicles via incentives, regulation and political pressure on manufacturers. Electric vehicles will be shoved down our throats whether we want them or not, whether our grid can handle them at scale or not.😕
 
The Night Rider said:
But what is your point in telling the story?

Would you be okay with having a surveillance device on your car?
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This was not about big gov't tracking a randon driver or car. The tracking device on the car in question had to be activated at the request of LE. There was no surveillance device on the perp's car just some form of Lojack that the car lot had installed to protect its investment. Many people who live in high crime areas install Lojack on their high dollar rides. I bet there are people who wished they'd installed air tags on their checked luggage this past week. I think as citizens we have a right to know the degree of domestic surveillance that the gov't processes, but I expect as technology evolves we will have to continue to push Congress for continued transparency, control, and protection. I figure my smart phone probably tracks me everywhere I go, and as long as I have it on me the gov't has the ability to know my wherabouts. I'm not thrilled about it. I've disabled some of the security features, but I expect Apple knows how to turn them back on. At least they claim they won't reveal my pass code. But to answer your question, in this case LE used a well known legal form of technology to locate a car. Their mission that day was to rescue a woman who was the victim of a violent assault. So the point was through the use of a tracker my story had a happy ending.
 
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RickAnderson said:
It was a Jeep Cherokee, not the Grand Cherokee that is a totally different vehicle.
It was a security flaw/bug in the software that did the remote updating and checking of the modules on the CAN Bus.
They could hack in like they were Chrysler trying to read the OBD codes or update software remotely over the Vehicle Wi-Fi optional connection, then able to send CAN bus message over the CAN Network.
Chrysler was able to fix the flaw/bug in minutes, but took months to get the software updated in all the vehicles they produced.
The Chief Engineer for the Cherokee was fired because of how screwed up and rushed all the software integrated componentry was rushed and under tested/developed creating all sorts of horrible problems for the company. The biggest was the new ZF 9 speed Transmission software. That Fiat/Chrysler decided not to pay ZF to develop the software implimentation and instead elected to do it themselves. For 3 months parking lots filled with completed Cherokees, that couldn't be sold as they waited for the software for the transmissions to be completed, and even then the software was destroying the transmission for the next 2 years when it was finished.

The Hackers could send CAN commands to the Lane Keeping Feature and the ABS.... ....meaning they could get the steering wheel to bump a couple of degrees for a moment or get your brakes to chirp for a few seconds to slow you down.... ...so while it was possible they get your car off course or lurch with a momentary application of brakes, they really couldn't drive your car...
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Well it was a long time ago, but you definitely got the story I read.
 
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