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I’ve pulled the trigger and gone Rare Breed

T

TacticalPirate

Master Class
Gentlemen, for the sake of science I have taken one for the team and upgraded two rifles and an AR pistol with Rare Breed triggers, and have a fourth in reserve for a gun I’ve yet to build from scratch.

I also have added Franklin Armory Binary triggers to a Saint Edge pistol and Edge PDW.

Stay tuned for field and range reports.

The M&Ps in this experiment are not the basic Sport 2, but the law enforcement M&P 15X with a chrome lined 1/9 Thompson/ Center barrel and M&P 15T with a 1/8 5R rifled Thompson/Center barrel. Both are upgraded with Geissele bolt carriers and Geissele H2 buffers and braided wire springs to handle the demands of the Rare Breed installation.

The pistol with a Rare Breed installation is a Geissele Super Duty 11.5, with a Daniel Defense 1/7 barrel, and Geissele everything, including H3 buffer and braided wire springs.

I’m not asking for ammo donations yet, like I said, I’m taking one for the team for the sake of science 😎
 

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Just got back from the range, all I can say is wow.

I dumped 180 round of 556 in about 5 minutes and have zero regrets.

The binaries are exceptional on the Edge PDW and pistol, and the Geiesske pistol and M&P 15X rocked the Rare Breed like champs.

Dumped two mag through both Rare Breeds, and once you learned to brace for the recoil the guns were very manageable, and one round shots and multiple round bursts as well as full auto sounding dumps were easy with the finessing of trigger pressure.

Zero malfunctions on any gun, all setups cycled without a single issue.
 
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Second trip with a different gun today, not as smooth as the first time around. Had seven light primer strikes and short bursts that wouldn't run full auto in the M&P 15T.

I hypothesize that the mid-length gas system versus the carbine length gas system requires a heavier buffer for this trigger to cycle. The M&P 15X ran flawlessly with a Geissele H2 buffer and braided spring with a carbine gas system, and the Geissele Super Duty 11.5 inch pistol runs flawlessly with an H3 on a carbine gas system, but the M&P 15T with mid length appears to struggle.

The ammo with light primer strikes were eaten up flawlessly by the Geissele pistol when run through that gun after being rejected by the M&P 15T.

So I feel it's definitely the gun and not the trigger, I'm going to have to troubleshoot buffer weights and possibly remove the M&P factory buffer tube for a mil spec one.

The M&P 15X had a Magpul buffer tube on it because of the stock I installed on it, I wonder if that's one of the difference makers.

Thoughts welcome.
 
Back from troubleshooting this morning at the range, I fixed the issue! It was the buffer, H2 was not heavy enough for a mid length and an H3 made it run like a charm.

So, in my three gun sample I can suggest, albeit with nuance pertaining to your own build, that a carbine gas system rifle use an H2 to run a Rare Breed Trigger, that a pistol use an H3, and that a mid length gas rifle use an H3.

Hope that helps anyone troubleshooting how to make their rifle hum if they buy a Rare Breed FRT 15.
 
Hello. I've been running the Rare Breed for a couple of months now.
My rifle is a totally stock Colt 6920. It ran like a charm right out of the box with the stock H1 buffer. I will say that even though it has run almost a 1000 rds without a hiccup, it runs very FAST. So, I listened to others' advice and dropped an H2 buffer in it after all advised it would slow it down. They were right. Unfortunately it slowed it down to a single shot rifle! It would jam after every shot.
I wonder if the experts here might have some recommendations as to what's going on? I would ASSUME that should I drop in an even heavier buffer, say H3, it would quit as well? Others have said that I should try changing the spring?
I know nothing about aftermarket springs, so perhaps suggestions as to what combination of spring and buffer might slow this gun down a bit? I'm not a build guy. All my ARs are factory Colts as is my M16A2. I bought this trigger to avoid taking an expensive NFA gun out to the range for fun all the time.
I have videos on my YT channel but don't know if it's allowed to post links here? My videos were motivated by my fix of a design flaw in this trigger and later a heavier trigger pull spring I added. But perhaps the mag dumps might give an idea of how it's running (under/over gassed)?
Thanks so much.
 
jack007 said:
Hello. I've been running the Rare Breed for a couple of months now.
My rifle is a totally stock Colt 6920. It ran like a charm right out of the box with the stock H1 buffer. I will say that even though it has run almost a 1000 rds without a hiccup, it runs very FAST. So, I listened to others' advice and dropped an H2 buffer in it after all advised it would slow it down. They were right. Unfortunately it slowed it down to a single shot rifle! It would jam after every shot.
I wonder if the experts here might have some recommendations as to what's going on? I would ASSUME that should I drop in an even heavier buffer, say H3, it would quit as well? Others have said that I should try changing the spring?
I know nothing about aftermarket springs, so perhaps suggestions as to what combination of spring and buffer might slow this gun down a bit? I'm not a build guy. All my ARs are factory Colts as is my M16A2. I bought this trigger to avoid taking an expensive NFA gun out to the range for fun all the time.
I have videos on my YT channel but don't know if it's allowed to post links here? My videos were motivated by my fix of a design flaw in this trigger and later a heavier trigger pull spring I added. But perhaps the mag dumps might give an idea of how it's running (under/over gassed)?
Thanks so much.
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The alleged design flaw is a point of contention, as it it is only a handful of people on YouTube causing much of the press for it, and they seem to be people who fiddled with the triggers for the most part. Obviously any mechanism can fail or be assembled incorrectly, but the vast majority of Rare Breed owners that play with the buffer weight and have a full auto BCG get it running flawlessly and are happy.

Each rifle buffer weight will be up to the build you have, if H2 is causing bolt bounce (which causes those single shots as your BCG fails to stay completely in battery) , H3 might fix the issue, it sounds like H1 was too aggressive and although cycling may wear your gun out prematurely.

If H3 doesn't work, I'd consult a gunsmith.

The rule of thumb for a properly gassed rifle will be if it is expelling the casings between 3 O'Clock and 4:30, any deviation from that and it could mean over gassed or under gassed.

I personally use the Geissele buffer system, with three braided springs, and have had no issues once I calibrated the correct buffer weight.

 
We can all agree to disagree, but as machinist for over 35 years I can assure you the safety lever spring is a flawed design. It's a moot point as mine is fixed now.
Thank you for the Geissele link! Sounds like that might be worth checking out for me!
Since it seems to be okay to post links, here's some of mine. Perhaps someone can tell the gassing? I honestly can't when I look at it.
Your expertise has been most appreciated!


60rd dump:

And one filmed in slo-mo:
 
Considering it's a factory Colt upper, gas shouldn't be an issue. If I'm right Colt was and is typically gassed to the max.
This kinda brings up my next thought. Not all buffers are created equal, correct? Some use tungsten powder, some have steel slugs or something in the buffer. I think how each material behaves would affect cycling as to whether or not the buffer closes the bolt/carrier group dead or does it bounce. Just something to think about.
 
Funwithfuel said:
Considering it's a factory Colt upper, gas shouldn't be an issue. If I'm right Colt was and is typically gassed to the max.
This kinda brings up my next thought. Not all buffers are created equal, correct? Some use tungsten powder, some have steel slugs or something in the buffer. I think how each material behaves would affect cycling as to whether or not the buffer closes the bolt/carrier group dead or does it bounce. Just something to think about.
Click to expand...
H3 buffers usually have three tungsten weights in them, an H2 is typically two tungsten weights and one steel weight, and H1 a single tungsten and two steel weights.

The quality of the spring matters as well.
 
jack007 said:
We can all agree to disagree, but as machinist for over 35 years I can assure you the safety lever spring is a flawed design. It's a moot point as mine is fixed now.
Thank you for the Geissele link! Sounds like that might be worth checking out for me!
Since it seems to be okay to post links, here's some of mine. Perhaps someone can tell the gassing? I honestly can't when I look at it.
Your expertise has been most appreciated!


60rd dump:

And one filmed in slo-mo:
Click to expand...
Your cases look like they’re being extracted and thrown at about two o’clock, I bet it goes to three o’clock when you get the buffer weight correct.
 
I bet it goes to three o’clock when you get the buffer weight correct.
Click to expand...

Can you give me clue as to what I might try first? Since we know the H2 is too heavy apparently, will the Geissele buffer allow smaller increments, or would you just start with changing the springs?
 
jack007 said:
Can you give me clue as to what I might try first? Since we know the H2 is too heavy apparently, will the Geissele buffer allow smaller increments, or would you just start with changing the springs?
Click to expand...
I can only guess. I had an H2 Geissele buffer and spring causing the bolt bounce you speak of with H2, and when upgraded to H3 it cycled great and extracted and threw brass casing at 3 O'clock.

Yet on another rifle H2 worked great. It's truly case by case.

But take heart that in vast majority of these issues, be it short stroking or bolt bounce, that it is the buffer system that needs tweaked to get it cycling reliably.

In your position, I would try the H3, if that doesn't work, go back to the H1 if you can tolerate it since it cycled, but if you thought it was cycling too violently then I would consult a gunsmith about what you've tried so far and see if the can diagnose a solution.

In your case the H2 might not be too heavy but rather not heavy enough to stay in battery after slowing down the cycling and thus bouncing out of battery (this is almost invisible to the naked eye and would require slow motion to even see it), I'd try out the H3 and see if that solves the issue.

The Geissele Buffer works best with a Geissele spring, the manufacturer doesn't recommend running either with other parts. It is a robust braided spring and tungsten buffer for what it's worth, and you can downgrade the H3 to another weight by taking out the tungsten weights and swapping with steel.
 
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In your case the H2 might not be too heavy but rather not heavy enough to stay in battery after slowing down the cycling and thus bouncing out of battery (this is almost invisible to the naked eye and would require slow motion to even see it), I'd try out the H3 and see if that solves the issue.
Click to expand...

This is where I show my ignorance. If it runs with H1, doesn't with H2, how can it run with an even heavier buffer like an H3? It seems so counterintuitive? BTW... I've been unable to track down an H3, or at least a Colt.
 
jack007 said:
This is where I show my ignorance. If it runs with H1, doesn't with H2, how can it run with an even heavier buffer like an H3? It seems so counterintuitive? BTW... I've been unable to track down an H3, or at least a Colt.
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Check out gunbroker.com, just beware of price gougers and know your spending limit. Not everyone on there is a rip-off artist but some are, so look up MSRP on the Geissele site and use that as a price guide.

The added weight may help keep the bolt into battery after slowing it down, it worked on one of my guns.
 
I have been studying the Geissele buffer spring setup.
It looks like this may be a very expensive experiment. LOL
I wish I had friends with them so I could try each out.
It doesn't look like Geissele is going to be much help...maybe a talk with Bill would have shed light.
The H3 is the most expensive option yet Pirate thinks that might work where my Colt H2 didn't.
What a conundrum.
Regardless, I'm tempted to get an H1 since it looks like a nice upgrade and I have other Colt carbines I could put it in. What do you think would happen using it in this Rare Breed set up given that the ColtH1 runs so well yet so fast? Could it damage the gun?
I do appreciate all the help!!!
 
jack007 said:
I have been studying the Geissele buffer spring setup.
It looks like this may be a very expensive experiment. LOL
I wish I had friends with them so I could try each out.
It doesn't look like Geissele is going to be much help...maybe a talk with Bill would have shed light.
The H3 is the most expensive option yet Pirate thinks that might work where my Colt H2 didn't.
What a conundrum.
Regardless, I'm tempted to get an H1 since it looks like a nice upgrade and I have other Colt carbines I could put it in. What do you think would happen using it in this Rare Breed set up given that the ColtH1 runs so well yet so fast? Could it damage the gun?
I do appreciate all the help!!!
Click to expand...
It could cycle violently where you don't enjoy shooting it, and you might hear the spring crunching and wear it out quicker than normal.

Most cost effective option is to buy an H1 and two tungsten weights, 20 bucks each, and upgrade your H1 to H2 or H3 as as required, try out all three.
 
I know it probably got lost in all the details, but I already tried the Colt H2 and it quit cold.
Is it possible that it might still run with the Geiselle H2 setup?
 
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