Laser or Irons?
- Thread starter 10mmLife
- Start date
michael.ed
Master Class
I also have the S&W Shield with the built-in Laser and yes, I use it when training, but mostly on speed drills. I don’t want to become too dependent on the laser, but I find they help me get back on target quicker when I need to shoot quicker. I have also put lasers on my other two carry guns. I think they are great.
Annihilator
Emissary
I just use my iron sites, been working for me for years now, plus I don’t have to worry about batteries.
Epeeist
Elite
I have a laser that is built into my weapon light for my carry gun, but it was more of a stand in until the Romeo Zero red dots started shipping. I find a dot to be faster and more accurate than a pistol mounted laser. IMO a laser is best used with NVG's in an IR setting, assuming your OPFOR does not also run NVG's. For me it goes RDS strong number one, good irons (tritium with fiber optic or similiar) second place and a laser over non-illuminated, non Fiber Optic small sights, ala an 80's era CZ75 or 1911.
I typically use irons but I can see the benefit of using the laser in a high stress situation where you need shots on target asap and be confident you don't miss. I never practice with the laser but feel I should run fast target drills to see if there is a real benefit.
Peglegjoe
Professional
I have a Viridian Reactor5 ECR green laser on my XDs - instant-on when I draw thanks to a magnet in the holster that switches the laser on and off. No button required, no thought required, simply draw and by the time the muzzle crosses the line of my toes on the way up to target, the laser is lit.
I practice with and without - it's an augmentation, not a crutch - and I need to be accurate if, for some reason, it doesn't light. I have it zeroed to co-witness with my iron sights at about 20' - line up my sight picture and I can just barely see the outline of the laser behind my front post sight, almost like an eclipse. It is fast to get on target, and I keep it on for the main reason that depending on the situation, I may not be able to hit a proper stance or even have my eyes behind the gun - in that situation, I simply place the dot, pull the trigger, and make a hole where I need to. I hope this is all ends up being a purely elementary discussion, but on the off chance I have to put it into practice...I'm fine "stacking the deck" in my favor.
I practice with and without - it's an augmentation, not a crutch - and I need to be accurate if, for some reason, it doesn't light. I have it zeroed to co-witness with my iron sights at about 20' - line up my sight picture and I can just barely see the outline of the laser behind my front post sight, almost like an eclipse. It is fast to get on target, and I keep it on for the main reason that depending on the situation, I may not be able to hit a proper stance or even have my eyes behind the gun - in that situation, I simply place the dot, pull the trigger, and make a hole where I need to. I hope this is all ends up being a purely elementary discussion, but on the off chance I have to put it into practice...I'm fine "stacking the deck" in my favor.
I like the way you think! I'm going to start using the internal laser on my shield more often at the range to get used to the idea of turning it on when drawing. I do like idea the Viridian laser you use with the magnet and I will look into possibly getting one for a different carry pistol I use. Is there a particular holster manufacturer you use that fits your sidearm with that laser?
michael.ed
Master Class
Peglegjoe, I am in complete agreement with you. As stated earlier, I have lasers on all 3 of my edc guns. I have the Viridian like yours on my XDE. Your use of the word augmentation is perfect. Use all the tools you can!
SMSgtRod
Professional
If I have to defend myself I want to be able to use my weapon with no muss, no fuss.
Iron sights have been highly effective for a long time now..... no need for some battery
powered gizmo. Yes, I do have some Dot and Laser units to play with. I sure don't EDC
with them. Don't need them.
Iron sights have been highly effective for a long time now..... no need for some battery
powered gizmo. Yes, I do have some Dot and Laser units to play with. I sure don't EDC
with them. Don't need them.
BET7
Ronin
I don't really use lasers while shooting handguns, although I have a few as rail attachments underneath for the pistols that have rails. I have a few revolvers I put scopes on, and that helps with my aging eyes. With my eye sight not as good as it once was, I'm more interested in RMR optics on pistols (which would mean new holsters if I started with that collection). My Glock G40 MOS has a Trijcon RMR that I'm still getting use to, but it seems I can pick up the red dot quicker than the front site. On rifles, Red dots and scopes all the way (except for my military collection which I'll shoot with the iron sights).
Short answer NO. Now I do have a wheel gun with a built in laser in the grip and it is never turned on. Only reason it is there was I traded for the pistol and it was what came on it. If you need a laser to take out a bad guy in a real life or death situation your going to be in real trouble if the battery is dead, or the switch is broken, or you just didn't turn it on. Those seconds trying to fiddle with the laser could be your death
Peglegjoe
Professional
I use Alien holsters, they have a special section on their website under "search by gun" called (something like) lights and attachments. They offer a reduced range of products depending on what your firearm/attachment combo is, but they do offer a large variety of IWB, OWB, velcro, paddle, shoulder, ankle....and I like their comfort. Their customer service is top notch, as well.
Ditto on the top notch Alien Gear customer service. You're able to contact them by phone and able to speak with a real person who actually helps you.
Classified
Professional
I think its good to have as a training device, and perhaps to warn off a moron but they seem to distract me more than aid. Irons seem to keep me 'in the moment.' It seems too easy to get wrapped up in the dot rather than stay aware of ones surroundings. Maybe the lasers I've used just aren't strong enough?
Seems like a vast majority doesn't like the laser. I use it as a training aid mostly for showing people muzzle control and also how much they flinch or are anticipating recoil by mixing a spent case in the mag so when they encounter the spent case you can see the muzzle drop by seeing the laser dip on the target.
Ironsights, lasers, lights, optics.
I'll take all of them if I can.
In the words of a true SME in the light/laser/nigh-vision field, John "Chappy" Chapman, "Lights to help you see the target; Laser to help you aim."
As long as you diligently train/practice in using it, it's a great accessory for transitional lighting (more in a minute), low-light, as well as for shooting from compromised positions (i.e. where obtaining a traditional sight package is difficult/impossible).
But you *need* to *train* towards that level of proficiency. Proper use of a laser sight should actually give the shooter a slight advantage in terms of speed, and should NOT - contrary to popular belief - "slow" the shooter. If you're slower with the laser than you are without, you need more practice with the laser, period.
So, then, detractors will say that the practice is a bother....but this is true for all of shooting - or, for that matter, any perishable skill, no?
Detractors love to say things like:
My retort to that would be the following: Is that really true of all shooters? or simply the ones you've witnessed?
There's a difference, isn't there?
The laser always shakes when viewed from the perspective of onlookers - this is inevitable, as even with a "rock solid" sight picture, we as human shooters still exhibit that "infinity-wobble," with a cone-of-deviation commensurate to our skill level, physical fatigue, and the particulars of the BSA template which we are engaging to. Everyone from novices to professional competitors, we all do this to some degree: all that the laser does is that it simply makes this motion visible.
The late Pat Rogers, in the Panteao Productions Make Ready with Pat Rogers: Carbine Two DVD/streaming training video, bemoaned the sad state of modern pistolcraft among armed professionals (the context being the capability of shooters to successfully prosecute lethal threats at distances between the 25 and 50 yard line, with their duty sidearm). He then demos the carbine-to-handgun transition by pulling his duty handgun, which is equipped with a laser.
The laser dances around on the target, but the shots are delivered with-precision.
OK, didn't see it, so it didn't happen, right? Unfortunately, while I did try to find that clip online, it's not available.
But that's OK - here's one that is......
Take a look here at Bill Blowers, a SME in the field of NV/low-light operations, and one of the Surefire Field Notes contributors:
Does Blowers' laser bobble about a bit? Note that this is with his carbine, which has more points-of-contact to the shooter versus a handgun and is thus by-definition more stable.
Yes, it does - but it's just like that wobble we see through our sights: break the trigger when the dot is on the target and do not disturb that sight relationship until the bullet is out of the muzzle. The fundamentals are no different be it for ironsights (where our eye/brain cannot resolve this level of "wobble" - i.e. that it's "hidden"), for the self-contained red-dot sight, or the projected laser.
[ Aside: The DBAL and MWAL are now very frequently seen even in the role of domestic-LE, and the role of the laser as a force-multiplier in terms of low-light and no-light operations, is now integral to many TTPs. This even extends to some at the tip of the spear (I got this directly from Joe Weyer, BTW) now electing to no longer rely on the BUIS as a backup sighting sighting system - even in daylight - as it takes critical time/ability to deploy, whereas their laser is something that they can, and I quote: "instantly transition to." ]
So then there's the "crutch" argument, often from that very same imaginary detractor:
But just because a tool can be mis-used, doesn't mean that it's not without value when properly used, either.
Modern handgun-mounted micro-RDSs are now an accepted performance-enhancing accessory in not only the competition handgun world, but in the real-life duty/service/defensive role as well.
But remember just years ago, when folks were insisting that it made them slower and was nothing more than a crutch?
What changed between now and then?
It's the recognition that we must practice towards the device.
[ Oh, and BTW, the principles of using the RDS are the same as that of using a laser. Proper usage of either device is for the shooter to obtain a threat-focused sight package. Those who would insist that the dot projected on the threat is distracting them from shooting? yeah, that logic doesn't work if you also believe that a red-dot sight works. ]
PROPER use of good tools can help us be more effective shooters. In terms of lasers, the ability of the projected POI to show us our intended hit without the need for us to establish a traditional sight package - whether it be that there's insufficient light to resolve the sights or if, for example, your gas-mask or tactical helmet prevents a proper cheek-weld, or even if you're just forced into a heck of an unconventional shooting position - can be invaluable.
The following example is from yet another SME in the industry, Claude Werner:
tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com
Werner isn't just a former Special Operations soldier - he also holds the distinction as having been one of the former Chief Instructors at the distinguished Rogers Shooting School in Ellijay, Georgia. The article above and his included video illustrates the capabilities of the laser in a transitional-light setting where there was plenty enough light to see the target, but insufficient light to resolve the sight bodies (and yes, this also means that there was too much light for tritium-illuminated sights to really work well).
But really, it doesn't even take top-level shooters to be able to show this difference:
That's a shooter who up-front notes that he's not an advanced shooter. His performance - at well over two seconds with first-shot A-zone hits from seemingly 5 to 7 yards, from an OWB, passive-retention-only holster - confirms his assessment.
On the clock, his performance suggests that at his level of capabilities and with that kind of BSA template, threat-focused shooting (here with a laser, but I would actually bet that he'd see the same with a slide-mounted or frame-mounted micro-RDS, too) manages to shave off a not-insignificant amount of time for him, and his proficiency is certainly far from that of a well-practiced shooter: armed professional, shooting instructor, competition shooter, etc.
The truth here is that all of shooting takes practice, be that with ironsights, laser, or a micro-RDS - or the LPVO on a CQB carbine, for that matter.
The observation that we're "slower" with anything other than ironsights simply reflects our time-on-task or lack thereof. We now know that the slide/frame mounted micro-RDS on a handgun does help both short-range speed as well as long-range accuracy and that, similarly, the "true"-1x LPVO on a carbine, for a similarly well-practiced shooter, can step into the CQB arena toe-to-toe with the unmagnified RDS. In both cases, we know now from students who have taken instruction from good instructors that such deficiencies are shooter-based, and what's more, can be corrected.
Why would this not also apply to the laser?
Certainly, the laser doesn't help compensate for bad shooting. The shooter has to be able to properly execute the fundamentals.
At the same time, yes, it will take practice: that same shooter has to be able to successfully apply those fundamentals to the laser.
But I really do not think it's a level of skill that's that difficult to achieve, and towards those two assertions above, I think that if the shooter is exhibiting that "birdshot at 30 yards" level of poor pistolcraft with the laser, that same shooter likely will also exhibit that abhorrent level of performance with ironsights, too.
----
Full disclosure:
The only laser I have on my gun is on my HD handgun - it's an old Insight M6 with an updated LED drop-in. I decided that I wanted a laser on this gun because I am very nearsighted. While my uncorrected vision is good enough to offer sufficient threat-ID and edge resolution, I can't pick up my handgun's sights without my prescription glasses. The laser obviates that need, and also offers me the ability to aim the gun from potentially awkward positions, without the ability to obtain a proper sight picture.
I'd love a MWAL on my HD carbine, but I currently don't have the budget to play in the NV area of the pool.
I'll take all of them if I can.
In the words of a true SME in the light/laser/nigh-vision field, John "Chappy" Chapman, "Lights to help you see the target; Laser to help you aim."
As long as you diligently train/practice in using it, it's a great accessory for transitional lighting (more in a minute), low-light, as well as for shooting from compromised positions (i.e. where obtaining a traditional sight package is difficult/impossible).
But you *need* to *train* towards that level of proficiency. Proper use of a laser sight should actually give the shooter a slight advantage in terms of speed, and should NOT - contrary to popular belief - "slow" the shooter. If you're slower with the laser than you are without, you need more practice with the laser, period.
So, then, detractors will say that the practice is a bother....but this is true for all of shooting - or, for that matter, any perishable skill, no?
Detractors love to say things like:
My retort to that would be the following: Is that really true of all shooters? or simply the ones you've witnessed?
There's a difference, isn't there?
The laser always shakes when viewed from the perspective of onlookers - this is inevitable, as even with a "rock solid" sight picture, we as human shooters still exhibit that "infinity-wobble," with a cone-of-deviation commensurate to our skill level, physical fatigue, and the particulars of the BSA template which we are engaging to. Everyone from novices to professional competitors, we all do this to some degree: all that the laser does is that it simply makes this motion visible.
The late Pat Rogers, in the Panteao Productions Make Ready with Pat Rogers: Carbine Two DVD/streaming training video, bemoaned the sad state of modern pistolcraft among armed professionals (the context being the capability of shooters to successfully prosecute lethal threats at distances between the 25 and 50 yard line, with their duty sidearm). He then demos the carbine-to-handgun transition by pulling his duty handgun, which is equipped with a laser.
The laser dances around on the target, but the shots are delivered with-precision.
OK, didn't see it, so it didn't happen, right? Unfortunately, while I did try to find that clip online, it's not available.
Take a look here at Bill Blowers, a SME in the field of NV/low-light operations, and one of the Surefire Field Notes contributors:
Does Blowers' laser bobble about a bit? Note that this is with his carbine, which has more points-of-contact to the shooter versus a handgun and is thus by-definition more stable.
Yes, it does - but it's just like that wobble we see through our sights: break the trigger when the dot is on the target and do not disturb that sight relationship until the bullet is out of the muzzle. The fundamentals are no different be it for ironsights (where our eye/brain cannot resolve this level of "wobble" - i.e. that it's "hidden"), for the self-contained red-dot sight, or the projected laser.
[ Aside: The DBAL and MWAL are now very frequently seen even in the role of domestic-LE, and the role of the laser as a force-multiplier in terms of low-light and no-light operations, is now integral to many TTPs. This even extends to some at the tip of the spear (I got this directly from Joe Weyer, BTW) now electing to no longer rely on the BUIS as a backup sighting sighting system - even in daylight - as it takes critical time/ability to deploy, whereas their laser is something that they can, and I quote: "instantly transition to." ]
So then there's the "crutch" argument, often from that very same imaginary detractor:
And my response is that you're absolutely right - nothing is a shortcut to shooting better.
But just because a tool can be mis-used, doesn't mean that it's not without value when properly used, either.
Modern handgun-mounted micro-RDSs are now an accepted performance-enhancing accessory in not only the competition handgun world, but in the real-life duty/service/defensive role as well.
But remember just years ago, when folks were insisting that it made them slower and was nothing more than a crutch?
What changed between now and then?
It's the recognition that we must practice towards the device.
[ Oh, and BTW, the principles of using the RDS are the same as that of using a laser. Proper usage of either device is for the shooter to obtain a threat-focused sight package. Those who would insist that the dot projected on the threat is distracting them from shooting? yeah, that logic doesn't work if you also believe that a red-dot sight works.
]PROPER use of good tools can help us be more effective shooters. In terms of lasers, the ability of the projected POI to show us our intended hit without the need for us to establish a traditional sight package - whether it be that there's insufficient light to resolve the sights or if, for example, your gas-mask or tactical helmet prevents a proper cheek-weld, or even if you're just forced into a heck of an unconventional shooting position - can be invaluable.
The following example is from yet another SME in the industry, Claude Werner:
Laser sights
I have seen too many people forget the basics and rely on finding the laser dot instead of looking down the sights on pistols. They became much slower with the laser. So began a Facebook thread in …
tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com
Werner isn't just a former Special Operations soldier - he also holds the distinction as having been one of the former Chief Instructors at the distinguished Rogers Shooting School in Ellijay, Georgia. The article above and his included video illustrates the capabilities of the laser in a transitional-light setting where there was plenty enough light to see the target, but insufficient light to resolve the sight bodies (and yes, this also means that there was too much light for tritium-illuminated sights to really work well).
But really, it doesn't even take top-level shooters to be able to show this difference:
That's a shooter who up-front notes that he's not an advanced shooter. His performance - at well over two seconds with first-shot A-zone hits from seemingly 5 to 7 yards, from an OWB, passive-retention-only holster - confirms his assessment.
On the clock, his performance suggests that at his level of capabilities and with that kind of BSA template, threat-focused shooting (here with a laser, but I would actually bet that he'd see the same with a slide-mounted or frame-mounted micro-RDS, too) manages to shave off a not-insignificant amount of time for him, and his proficiency is certainly far from that of a well-practiced shooter: armed professional, shooting instructor, competition shooter, etc.
The truth here is that all of shooting takes practice, be that with ironsights, laser, or a micro-RDS - or the LPVO on a CQB carbine, for that matter.
The observation that we're "slower" with anything other than ironsights simply reflects our time-on-task or lack thereof. We now know that the slide/frame mounted micro-RDS on a handgun does help both short-range speed as well as long-range accuracy and that, similarly, the "true"-1x LPVO on a carbine, for a similarly well-practiced shooter, can step into the CQB arena toe-to-toe with the unmagnified RDS. In both cases, we know now from students who have taken instruction from good instructors that such deficiencies are shooter-based, and what's more, can be corrected.
Why would this not also apply to the laser?
Certainly, the laser doesn't help compensate for bad shooting. The shooter has to be able to properly execute the fundamentals.
At the same time, yes, it will take practice: that same shooter has to be able to successfully apply those fundamentals to the laser.
But I really do not think it's a level of skill that's that difficult to achieve, and towards those two assertions above, I think that if the shooter is exhibiting that "birdshot at 30 yards" level of poor pistolcraft with the laser, that same shooter likely will also exhibit that abhorrent level of performance with ironsights, too.
----
Full disclosure:
The only laser I have on my gun is on my HD handgun - it's an old Insight M6 with an updated LED drop-in. I decided that I wanted a laser on this gun because I am very nearsighted. While my uncorrected vision is good enough to offer sufficient threat-ID and edge resolution, I can't pick up my handgun's sights without my prescription glasses. The laser obviates that need, and also offers me the ability to aim the gun from potentially awkward positions, without the ability to obtain a proper sight picture.
I'd love a MWAL on my HD carbine, but I currently don't have the budget to play in the NV area of the pool.
Shamrocker
Elite
.
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