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Lethal Force Vs Pepper Spray

Talyn

SAINT
Founding Member

Is There Ever A Justification?

It depends on more than if you face someone wielding the less-than-lethal option.

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I am about to start carrying pepper spray, in addition to my gun. Think about it - an ANTIFA thug gets in your face and starts harassing you, but he is unarmed. If you shoot him, you used disparate force, and you will be guilty of murder or attempted murder. However, if you pepper-spray him, you will at most get a slap on the wrist. If the ANTIFA mob then comes after you, I believe you would be legally justified in drawing your gun and firing.

Probably good to have an extra magazine or two.
 
I am about to start carrying pepper spray, in addition to my gun. Think about it - an ANTIFA thug gets in your face and starts harassing you, but he is unarmed. If you shoot him, you used disparate force, and you will be guilty of murder or attempted murder. However, if you pepper-spray him, you will at most get a slap on the wrist. If the ANTIFA mob then comes after you, I believe you would be legally justified in drawing your gun and firing.

Probably good to have an extra magazine or two.

You might try walking away.
 
Antifa/BLM operates as a swarming pack. Unless they are out-matched they will swarm to a target and attack. Plenty of vids showing that.

In case of an encounter act according to the level of threat based their numbers, proximity and opportunities to disengage to a more secure location.

They also consider bystanders that aren't part of their org as possible LEO scouts and will confront.
 
I think that it goes without saying that we are probably talking about circumstances where some level of force is required and that simply walking away or avoiding the problem does not seemingly exist.

Sure, avoid a problem where you can. If you cant, its probably a good idea to have come to terms with what you are willing to do in the face of varying levels of adversity.

Pepper spays are not the end all "be all" but I consider it fair to say that when using an appropriate level of SHU, a professional grade solution and a quality high pressure can, it is often a very good option in many circumstances.

That said, I would recommend a good plan B in the event it doesnt have the effect you desire or when the desired effect is substantially delayed. A person using pepper spray can expect to be cross contaminated sooner or later.. it happens.

Speaking just for myself, I prefer the 2 oz high pressure can with the flip up guard, ballistic stream in the 500k SHU range. If it is expected to be used primarily indoors, I prefer the foam.

As always, know your laws regarding the carriage, use and ownership of defensive sprays
 
If someone is attacking you with a bat and you defend yourself with a gun, I very seriously doubt you are going to prison. The bar ( at least in Castle/SYG states) is reasonable fear for your life. I know for a fact one good swing to the nugget from a baseball bat can easily kill you.
 
As John from Active Self Protection says "It's what I use in-between a harsh word and a gun." The hot sauce is in my EDC. It also seems great for discouraging dog attacks.

^ That is really the short and long of it.

Understand AOJP (and understand that imminent jeopardy and preclusion are the two factors which tend to trip-up defenders the most).

Understand the Use-of-Force Continuum (yes, this even applies in terms of civilian life), as well as how disparity-of-force (which applies both ways, to both the threat and you) may affect this sliding-scale.

Having a choice is always better than not - but also understand that in times of dire stress, we as human beings fall to the level of performance which we have *_mastered_* (not "trained," as the popular saying goes). "Pepper spray" is an excellent intermediate-force tool, but just like any other, it demands knowledge and skill to wield properly: without such, carrying it is nothing more than carrying an amulet.
 
Also be advised that pepper spray is not terribly effective against people or dogs. The effects are miserable but it generally forces a fight or flight response. Most reasonable people quit once sprayed, but if they were reasonable to begin with they wouldn’t have been sprayed…
It will slam your eyes shut but there is a long time when you are vulnerable to attack still. Also be aware that if you spray, you can expect to be affected as well. The stuff is directed by the wind and also bounces off walls, people, cars etc.
Food for thought.
Cheers Gofer
 
Also be aware that if you spray, you can expect to be affected as well. The stuff is directed by the wind and also bounces off walls, people, cars etc.
Food for thought.
Cheers Gofer
When I was eight, I had been eyeing the mace on the visor of the car for some time. When the alone time presented itself I finally pulled it from it's resting place and clicked it to armed. I knew enough to point it away from me but pushing down released a giant puff the immediately came back on me because I hadn't checked the wind situation. I could blame it on only being eight but I'm an idiot even to this day. But I can learn from my mistakes!!! No more pissing in the wind for me! Train, Train, Train.
 
Also be advised that pepper spray is not terribly effective against people or dogs. The effects are miserable but it generally forces a fight or flight response. Most reasonable people quit once sprayed, but if they were reasonable to begin with they wouldn’t have been sprayed…
It will slam your eyes shut but there is a long time when you are vulnerable to attack still. Also be aware that if you spray, you can expect to be affected as well. The stuff is directed by the wind and also bounces off walls, people, cars etc.
Food for thought.
Cheers Gofer
I am not sure what you mean by terribly effective but I have had the occasion to spray plenty of violent offenders with very good results. I have used foggers, foam, ballistic stream and jells. Did is work 100% of the time? Nope but it easily worked well the overwhelming majority of the time when I decent hit was achieved. When I say worked well, I mean that it stopped aggression, substantially hindered an attackers ability to continue their attack or caused an offender into comply with commands. I have been hit in training 4 or 5 times and I have been cross contaminated several times. I have been hit with 300k, 500k and 1 mil SHU. I promise you, even a mediocre hit would change my channels.
 
About 25 years ago my (now ex) wife maced me while I was driving during an argument. I assume mace has come a long way since then, but as aggravating and painful as it was it didn't even come close to incapacitating me. I turned the car around, drove to her parents house, removed her from the car, got back in and left.
 
Also be advised that pepper spray is not terribly effective against people or dogs. The effects are miserable but it generally forces a fight or flight response. Most reasonable people quit once sprayed, but if they were reasonable to begin with they wouldn’t have been sprayed…

^ Ah, but remember, this *also* applies directly to our other defensive tools. as well.

Neither the knife nor the handgun are the "manstoppers" that television and Hollywood make them out to be. Both require precise disruption of critical anatomy to disable action, and failing that, the mechanism of blood-loss is one that unfortunately often requires significant time to reach desired effect.

Similar considerations also goes for the stun-gun (pain compliance) and even the TASER.

You're absolutely right, though, in that a psychological stop is just as good as a physiologic stop any day, as long as the threat has done just that: stopped.

But when that individual or beast was unreasonable to begin with, well, that does say a lot. :LOL:

The truth is that we need to understand the capabilities of any of the tools that we may choose to carry. In my humble opinion, it's nearly as great of a sin to misunderstand -and thus misuse- that tool, just as it is to simply carry it as an amulet in an effort to ward off evil.

Also very importantly for those who carry these items is that one should pay attention to the expiration date imprinted on the product, and replace the item accordingly.

It will slam your eyes shut but there is a long time when you are vulnerable to attack still. Also be aware that if you spray, you can expect to be affected as well. The stuff is directed by the wind and also bounces off walls, people, cars etc.
Food for thought.
Cheers Gofer

and

When I was eight, I had been eyeing the mace on the visor of the car for some time. When the alone time presented itself I finally pulled it from it's resting place and clicked it to armed. I knew enough to point it away from me but pushing down released a giant puff the immediately came back on me because I hadn't checked the wind situation. I could blame it on only being eight but I'm an idiot even to this day. But I can learn from my mistakes!!! No more pissing in the wind for me! Train, Train, Train.

It's worth noting that there are different.......

  • formulations: CN, CS (commonly known as "tear gas"), and OC - the latter of which is what we typically refer to as "pepper spray," which is itself is rather confusingly marketed based on either their "strength," via "Scoville Heat Units" ("SHU," where it is typically recommended by experts to look for units billing at 1 million SHU or above [common range is between 500,000 to ~5 million]) or via "concentration" (typically listed as a straight percentage between 1 to 20%, with SMEs recommending purchasing those of > 5% concentration) or "Total Capsaicinoids" ("SHU x concentration," with SMEs recommending the rather commonly available 1.5%, but that anything > 0.5% is seen as acceptable). CN and CS are classified as irritants, and thus depend heavily on the target's reaction to pain, which is both subjective to the individual as well as can be decreased due to the presence of perception-altering substances; OC, on the other hand, is an inflammatory agent - and thus is both faster-acting as well as causes a physiologic reaction that leads to the vision/respiratory effects which typically causes the threat to temporarily disengage. Some OC units also include other irritants and/or a visible/UV marking dye to help authorities identify the sprayed individual.

  • devices: Not just "keychain" versus "grenade" versus "spray can," but in even more detail, like the actual physical format and size of the device: i.e. "MK-3," "MK-6," "MK-9," etc. Also, there are differences in propellant type, such as with the Kimber PepperBlaster, which may make certain units more or less well-suited for certain tasks or even storage conditions. The Defense-Technology website has this great resource to help buyers visualize both physical size/configuration as well as dispersal pattern (below) - https://www.defense-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/DT_OC_Aerosols_Sell_Sheet.pdf

  • dispersal pattern: Fog, spray/mist, cone, or stream - and the latter can also be foam or gel, each of these have their own strengths and compromises where it comes to range versus coverage versus speed-to-effect versus the risk of "blowback" onto the defender who is employing the device. No one pattern is optimal for all scenarios. For example, the spray/mist allows for considerably more leeway in terms of aim and its aerosolized particles can induce a more rapid response in the targeted individual when compared against a stream of gel or foam. But compared against the stream, the spray/mist lacks significant range (typically cited as 3 to 4 yards for the former, versus just 2 to 3 yards for the latter), and also risks more significant blowback from wind. Inert training sprays are available for many of the most popular formats, and it's smart money to invest a few dollars in these devices in order to get a better understanding of the effective range and other usage characteristics of the dispersal pattern you've chosen (as well as so that you can see how the item may fit in your hand and/or must be indexed and accessed in-fight [i.e. dominant hand versus support-hand preference, etc.]).

As a personal example, I carry a stream MK-6 device, on my dominant side. I chose these characteristics based on what I perceive as my most likely use of this defensive tool. Another person may have the same requirements as me - or not. :)

And as with any defensive scenario, it's smart to bet on your primary plan or action *_not_* working out as you had envisioned. Have a backup plan - whether it be to beat-feet via the classic Nike defense or to go hands-on, or to escalate to lethal-force.
 
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About 25 years ago my (now ex) wife maced me while I was driving during an argument. I assume mace has come a long way since then, but as aggravating and painful as it was it didn't even come close to incapacitating me. I turned the car around, drove to her parents house, removed her from the car, got back in and left.

My understanding is that the original "Mace" product was a CN formulation - an irritant. Depending on the individual's unique predilections, its effects are somewhat subjective, as the main component of "compliance" it elicits is via the subject's perception of pain.

Because modern "pepper sprays" - OC - elicit a physiological inflammatory response, it's typically more effective. Still, as @Gofer and @KASHIRA-3 noted, there's a range of effectiveness seen on-target. Who knows, take a small sample hit of a good, high-quality modern OC and see how you fare: it's possible that you just may be one of those individuals for whom this kind of intervention has less effect, which is itself not a bad thing to know, if only it helps you select the appropriate dispersal pattern for what you may wish to carry. (y)
 
I appreciate the comments of those who have replied to my comment about tear gas and fighting against such groups as ANTIFA. The more I think about it, the more I realize that any weapon used against you can be deadly, and so it would be appropriate to respond with a firearm.

When I made the comment about using tear gas against ANTIFA, I was thinking of a recent event where the mayor of Portland (?) was being harassed by an ANTIFA thug; his response was to soak the guy's face in tear gas; he successfully stopped the harassment by doing so.

So I think that sometimes tear gas would be the appropriate weapon to use; but sadly, we are coming to a time when the only thing you'll be able to do is shoot the attacker with your gun.
 
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