Golf&Plink13
Alpha
Does anyone have any experience with the new M&P 15T II? Wondering how it compares to the Saint Victor B5 and IWI Zion for a first mid tier rifle . I shoot left so coming with Ambi controls is a plus.
M&P 15T II
- Thread starter Golf&Plink13
- Start date
Funwithfuel
Custom
Why not look at Stag Arms. They were a quality product prior to legal issues. I can't speak for the resurrected name. But they offer mirror image uppers for lefties.
@Golf&Plink13 -
To begin this reply, I have to say that I don't have any experience with the new 15T II - I've had some trigger time on the Sport II, but that's also about as far as my experiences take me, with respect to your specific question.
That said, I do have a few ARs....
And this is where I'd like to ask you a question, before going any further with any advice.
Is this your first AR?
If not, would you share some of your AR background, so that we can properly frame our coming discussion?
To begin this reply, I have to say that I don't have any experience with the new 15T II - I've had some trigger time on the Sport II, but that's also about as far as my experiences take me, with respect to your specific question.
That said, I do have a few ARs....
And this is where I'd like to ask you a question, before going any further with any advice.
Is this your first AR?
If not, would you share some of your AR background, so that we can properly frame our coming discussion?
Golf&Plink13
Alpha
Hi,
Yes this is my first AR. I’ve had some experience shooting a friend’s M&P Sport, a friend’s Colt, and a Daniel Defense V7. I intend to use this mostly at the range but also to keep in a bedroom gun safe for home defense. I’m left eye dominant and a bit of a trigger snob. So something reliable with a free floated barrel amd M-LOK is what I was looking for. That’s why I was looking at the Victor B5, Zion and M&P 15T II. I have two Shield’s and do like the grip on hand guns but it isn’t really a deal breaker. Just saw ambi controls, a good trigger, and irons coming on both that and the Saint. They are both ready to go out of the box but I do intend to also purchase a Swampfox prism scope as well. I would consider Aero but I’d rather not assemble my first AR. Possibly assembly an aero or BCM later on. But just wanting something ready to go and reliable for now. And something cheaper than DD.
Bassbob
Emissary
None of the guns you listed is going to have a trigger that will make a trigger snob happy. Triggers are easy enough to change though.
You are going to want a free floating handguard and a red dot.
Colt makes good ARs, but I personally don't like them and personally don't like M4 type handguards.
The IWI Zion is a good mid/entry level AR.
Switching out ambi controls is cheap and can be done easily.
This will not end up being your only AR no matter what you say now so I wouldn't go hog wild on your first time out.
Assembling a stripped lower is something anyone can do. There are a million videos and tutorials on-line that will guide you through the process. Yeah there are specialty tools that make it easier, but you can do it with tools you already have, believe me. You may have to buy a $10 set of punches. If you buy a complete upper there is no assembling there. You just snap it on your lower. The first time I assembled a stripped lower took about 45 minutes. That said, I bought a complete off the shelf carbine for my first one and it isn't a bad idea. I bought an Adams Arms Voodoo Innovations Witch Doctor, which I would compare to the IWI Zion quality and price wise.
Personally I wouldn't spend more than $800 or so on your first AR. Buying a high end AR the first time out is a gamble because once you get familiar with the platform you may decide to change stuff. Stuff you paid a hell of a lot of money for.
You are going to want a free floating handguard and a red dot.
Colt makes good ARs, but I personally don't like them and personally don't like M4 type handguards.
The IWI Zion is a good mid/entry level AR.
Switching out ambi controls is cheap and can be done easily.
This will not end up being your only AR no matter what you say now so I wouldn't go hog wild on your first time out.
Assembling a stripped lower is something anyone can do. There are a million videos and tutorials on-line that will guide you through the process. Yeah there are specialty tools that make it easier, but you can do it with tools you already have, believe me. You may have to buy a $10 set of punches. If you buy a complete upper there is no assembling there. You just snap it on your lower. The first time I assembled a stripped lower took about 45 minutes. That said, I bought a complete off the shelf carbine for my first one and it isn't a bad idea. I bought an Adams Arms Voodoo Innovations Witch Doctor, which I would compare to the IWI Zion quality and price wise.
Personally I wouldn't spend more than $800 or so on your first AR. Buying a high end AR the first time out is a gamble because once you get familiar with the platform you may decide to change stuff. Stuff you paid a hell of a lot of money for.
Bear007
Custom
I don't know anything about but I saw this Radical Arms at Primary Arms yesterday. It is cheap for a starter and it does have the free float handguard. You can always drop a trigger in it. As you said, it is for some time at the range making some noise and home defense so I don't guess you'll be trying to shoot 500 yards.
Of the three that you mentioned, as @Bassbob noted, @Golf&Plink13 , I think that you won't really be that fond of the triggers on the M&P 15T II, Saint Victor B5, or the IWI Zion. Given that they are less-expensive guns to begin with, it's rare to find a more refined trigger at this level of the playing field. I wouldn't get your hopes up too high - and encourage you to go to your LGS and see if they have any of these in-stock, to see if you can get in some dry-fire, so that you won't be disappointed.
However, also @Bassbob noted, upgrading/modifying the trigger is easy to do, and there's many different ones -at all budget levels- out there. If you're at all mechanically inclined and have basic tools available, it's really more than easily do-able (I coached my then 11-year-old daughter through the build of her lower, helping her only when the job required extra oomph, like putting in the trigger due to the springs -
). The following video on the School of the American Rifle (SOTAR) YouTube channel is worth your undivided attention, I think, particularly as it also covers the upgrade/modification of the safety selector. Fire control upgrades/modifications
It's a long video, but trust me, it's worth it.
Based on previous experiences with the M&P 15 Sport, I honestly would not have a problem putting the rifle into a defensive role. As with any other gun, I would like to give it a personal inspection, first, but overall, they build a decent gun at this price level. I can't say, either way, with either the Saint or the IWI guns, since I just don't have that much experience with them. For hobby use, I think that any of these three would be just fine.
S&W's Customer Support is a known quantity, and I'd say that Springfield doesn't fail in that comparison. I have no experience with IWI. I really think that it's important to go with a manufacturer that has a good warranty and C/S reputation when purchasing a complete gun, for nothing if not that this is really part of what you're paying for.
Speaking of paying...
I haven't been in the market for quite some time, but with a quick Google search, I'm seeing the following pricing at Palmetto State Armory:
M&P 15T II, ~$1,300
Saint B5, ~$1,000
Zion, ~$850
The last two aren't separated by that much, but that M&P is a hefty bit more. I can't tell you if it's worth the extra scratch, but what I can tell you is that if you're going to spend that much, you might consider just going for a BCM, SOLGW, or Sionics complete, and consider instead going for a lower model versus one with all the bells and whistles to begin with. While I understand your desire for those items which may seem added-value, the truth of the matter is that as you start down this path, you will more than likely be upgrading/modifying - and starting off with a gun with ostensibly "better bones" may well be worth the money, especially when you're at a state that you truly don't yet know what you're looking for.
My very frugal -not "cheap," this man saves up until he has the dough to buy the best, and even then, he shops very, very smartly- buddy actually started his AR journey that way, with a Colt 6920. He threw on some Magpul furniture before his first training class, but since then, he's been adding a part or two to the gun after every class. He'd use those one to three days (and oftentimes also nights) in classes to figure out what he likes or doesn't, and then change his gun accordingly: at an armorer's class, for-instance, he made the biggest changes - to a low-profile gas-block so that he could run a longer, slimmer, M-LOK handguard.
However, also @Bassbob noted, upgrading/modifying the trigger is easy to do, and there's many different ones -at all budget levels- out there. If you're at all mechanically inclined and have basic tools available, it's really more than easily do-able (I coached my then 11-year-old daughter through the build of her lower, helping her only when the job required extra oomph, like putting in the trigger due to the springs -
It's a long video, but trust me, it's worth it.
Based on previous experiences with the M&P 15 Sport, I honestly would not have a problem putting the rifle into a defensive role. As with any other gun, I would like to give it a personal inspection, first, but overall, they build a decent gun at this price level. I can't say, either way, with either the Saint or the IWI guns, since I just don't have that much experience with them. For hobby use, I think that any of these three would be just fine.
S&W's Customer Support is a known quantity, and I'd say that Springfield doesn't fail in that comparison. I have no experience with IWI. I really think that it's important to go with a manufacturer that has a good warranty and C/S reputation when purchasing a complete gun, for nothing if not that this is really part of what you're paying for.
Speaking of paying...
I haven't been in the market for quite some time, but with a quick Google search, I'm seeing the following pricing at Palmetto State Armory:
M&P 15T II, ~$1,300
Saint B5, ~$1,000
Zion, ~$850
The last two aren't separated by that much, but that M&P is a hefty bit more. I can't tell you if it's worth the extra scratch, but what I can tell you is that if you're going to spend that much, you might consider just going for a BCM, SOLGW, or Sionics complete, and consider instead going for a lower model versus one with all the bells and whistles to begin with. While I understand your desire for those items which may seem added-value, the truth of the matter is that as you start down this path, you will more than likely be upgrading/modifying - and starting off with a gun with ostensibly "better bones" may well be worth the money, especially when you're at a state that you truly don't yet know what you're looking for.
My very frugal -not "cheap," this man saves up until he has the dough to buy the best, and even then, he shops very, very smartly- buddy actually started his AR journey that way, with a Colt 6920. He threw on some Magpul furniture before his first training class, but since then, he's been adding a part or two to the gun after every class. He'd use those one to three days (and oftentimes also nights) in classes to figure out what he likes or doesn't, and then change his gun accordingly: at an armorer's class, for-instance, he made the biggest changes - to a low-profile gas-block so that he could run a longer, slimmer, M-LOK handguard.
ETA:
FWIW, @Golf&Plink13 , I also found what @Bassbob wrote about an expensive "first gun" to have been very accurate, in terms of my own history.
I started off with an LMT MRP CQB16 (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/lets-see-your-ar-setups.258/page-5#post-4862), which just felt great to me at the LGS. I had virtually no understanding of the AR's finer aspects at the time: I only knew enough to know that the Lewis Machine & Tool Company name was considered to be GTG by the cognoscenti, so when it felt *_so_* much more solid versus the Daniel Defense that I'd compared it with, side-by-side, I chose the LMT.
Guess what?
After my first class, I realized that I didn't like lugging that beast of an LMT around with me all day - and that I'd actually started to dread the thought of taking multiple-day classes with it.
OK, I'd be lying to you if I said I was a pencil-neck'ed paper-pusher, but I'm nowhere even remotely near Pat Mac-level, either! And heck, even guys like Pat Mac and Steve "The Yeti" Fisher love their lightweights!
So what did I do?
I found myself back at the store - this time, I picked the lightest gun they had, instead (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/lets-see-your-ar-setups.258/page-4#post-4251 - I know, thicc-gal doesn't look so svelte these days, but trust me, that pencil-barrel -to- DD pic rail pairing was about as good as it got, back in the day).
Take your time, @Golf&Plink13 - hammer out what you really want and what you don't, before you plunk down your hard-earned cash!
FWIW, @Golf&Plink13 , I also found what @Bassbob wrote about an expensive "first gun" to have been very accurate, in terms of my own history.
I started off with an LMT MRP CQB16 (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/lets-see-your-ar-setups.258/page-5#post-4862), which just felt great to me at the LGS. I had virtually no understanding of the AR's finer aspects at the time: I only knew enough to know that the Lewis Machine & Tool Company name was considered to be GTG by the cognoscenti, so when it felt *_so_* much more solid versus the Daniel Defense that I'd compared it with, side-by-side, I chose the LMT.
Guess what?
After my first class, I realized that I didn't like lugging that beast of an LMT around with me all day - and that I'd actually started to dread the thought of taking multiple-day classes with it.
OK, I'd be lying to you if I said I was a pencil-neck'ed paper-pusher, but I'm nowhere even remotely near Pat Mac-level, either! And heck, even guys like Pat Mac and Steve "The Yeti" Fisher love their lightweights! So what did I do?
I found myself back at the store - this time, I picked the lightest gun they had, instead (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/lets-see-your-ar-setups.258/page-4#post-4251 - I know, thicc-gal doesn't look so svelte these days, but trust me, that pencil-barrel -to- DD pic rail pairing was about as good as it got, back in the day).
Take your time, @Golf&Plink13 - hammer out what you really want and what you don't, before you plunk down your hard-earned cash!
Bassbob
Emissary
I have handled, stripped and shot the Zion and I also have a couple other IWI offerings, including the TS-12. These people make small arms for the IDF incidentally. Of the 3 mentioned I would personally go with the Zion, maybe upgrade the trigger and put a Magpul stock on it. But I have far less experience with the platform than @TSiWRX does. If I was going to budget $1300 for one I would buy a complete upper like this one from BCM, add the BCG and the Mod 4 charging handle and you're looking at just over a grand.
bravocompanyusa.com
Then buy an Aero stripped lower, an RA Rave drop in single stage trigger like this. https://risearmament.com/product/rise-armament-rave-140-curved-trigger/
Then pick up a Magpul stock and an enhanced lower parts kit. Add a Romeo 5 and you're coming in around that price range.
BCM® BFH 16" Mid Length (ENHANCED Light Weight) Complete Upper Receiver Group w/ MCMR-15 Handguard
Recce Rifle 16" Upper Receiver Group (Enhanced Lightweight & Barrel Forged Hammer). This AR15 Upper comes with MCMR-15 handguard & your choice of muzzle device
Then buy an Aero stripped lower, an RA Rave drop in single stage trigger like this. https://risearmament.com/product/rise-armament-rave-140-curved-trigger/
Then pick up a Magpul stock and an enhanced lower parts kit. Add a Romeo 5 and you're coming in around that price range.
Annihilator
Emissary
16'' 5.56 NATO Rifle with 15'' RPR
www.radicalfirearms.com
ROMEO MSR AND JULIET3-MICRO COMBO
Sealed compact red dot sight with 20,000+ hour battery life paired with the JULIET3-MICRO magnifier
www.sigsauer.com
This is the AR I may be getting, my brother got it at a gun raffle, so he is offering it to me if I want it. Comes with the Sig sights and a soft tactical case.
Bassbob
Emissary
Welcome to the rabbit hole brother.16'' 5.56 NATO Rifle with 15'' RPR
www.radicalfirearms.com
ROMEO MSR AND JULIET3-MICRO COMBO
Sealed compact red dot sight with 20,000+ hour battery life paired with the JULIET3-MICRO magnifier
This is the AR I may be getting, my brother got it at a gun raffle, so he is offering it to me if I want it. Comes with the Sig sights and a soft tactical case.
Golf&Plink13
Alpha
Appreciate the insight everyone. Maybe going with the Zion and changing out the trigger, charging handle and safety is the route I will go. I have considered finding a complete upper such as an aero or BCM as well. Some of those are coming hard to find. I appreciate the input from everyone!
I really don't have that much experience - I just talk a good game.
I'm an open book...all I know (what little I know), I put in here!
----
@Golf&Plink13 , the thing with your OP is that you've got quite the budget-er....span?
....that makes things a little harder, actually, as it's harder to pin down exactly what you're shopping for (or with, for that matter).Look at it this way:
If you told me you didn't want to cross the $30K mark for a new vehicle (and at least gave me some specifics, like if you wanted a truck versus sedan, etc.), I'd at least be able to give you a decent idea of what to look at.
But if you told me you had a $50K budget, but rather only spent $40K, and if I could keep it under $30K, that's even better....well, that actually made my recommendation much harder, no?
The problem with the "MSR" is that there's just so many choices available today. Budget-guns of $600 can throw lead downrange just as well as guns four or even five times its price-tag. And while there's something to be said about the QA/QC of the "higher-end" guns (I'll drop this post link here: https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/lets-see-your-ar-setups.258/page-5#post-4715 - the legendary, late, Pat Rogers' final lecture is worth the time regardless of your level of expertise with the AR15-platform / the 4+ hour marathon of a P&S ModCast is a real gem, but you need to really settle down for that fight, and what's more, until you have at least some background with the platform, some of what they're talking about can be a bit of a reach), in the vast majority of cases, they all will perform just fine.
My recommendation is that you tighten your budget to within $200 or so of a set "base budget," and everything over that that you are still looking to spend, you instead plop it in to a piggy bank for modifications/upgrades.
Setting up a training budget, can be even better - usually, after a shooter's run the gun even through just their first training class, he/she will have a list of things that they'd like changed/improved, based on their experiences running the gun under a bit of pressure.
Primary Arms has plenty of complete Aero lowers in stock and Optics Planet has plenty of Aero complete uppers in stock. One thing to note is that Aero typically doesn't include a BCG or charging handle with their uppers.
BCGs are readily available again and I'd recommend a decent Ambi charging handle like the Radian Raptor liner but those are pretty pricey so another option is the Break Warhammer which is pretty solid and smooth operating and can be had for roughy $40
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Is he will to give you a free AR?16'' 5.56 NATO Rifle with 15'' RPR
www.radicalfirearms.com
ROMEO MSR AND JULIET3-MICRO COMBO
Sealed compact red dot sight with 20,000+ hour battery life paired with the JULIET3-MICRO magnifier
This is the AR I may be getting, my brother got it at a gun raffle, so he is offering it to me if I want it. Comes with the Sig sights and a soft tactical case.
Can you say SCORE!!!
Bassbob
Emissary
Bravo Company ( BCM) has been perpetually out of stock on just about everything for a long time now. That upper I linked to is actually in stock right now much to my surprise.
Bassbob
Emissary
I really don't have that much experience - I just talk a good game.
That's my motto. Every time someone accuses me of knowing how to do my job very well I tell them I really don't know shite, I just memorize key phrases.
^ Enable the in-stock notifications. Their stuff sells pretty quickly.
Their stocking dealers are another way to go.