Marble's Game Getter
- Thread starter cico7
- Start date
iklwa
Master Class
I am betting you can get at least 30 grains (by volume) of FFFg powder into a 44 Mag case.
I would suggest filling it up to the point that the powder is slightly compressed when the round ball (or other projectile) is seated. Make sure it is crimped well.
There is no way you can hurt your modern 44 with black powder except by corrosion.
My first 375 H&H Magnum loads used full cases of FFFg black powder and actually shot very nicely out to 100 yards and beyond. The 300 grain projectiles, because they just weren't going as fast as with modern propellant, dropped quickly after 100.
Ooo!
I love the smell of BP!
I would suggest filling it up to the point that the powder is slightly compressed when the round ball (or other projectile) is seated. Make sure it is crimped well.
There is no way you can hurt your modern 44 with black powder except by corrosion.
My first 375 H&H Magnum loads used full cases of FFFg black powder and actually shot very nicely out to 100 yards and beyond. The 300 grain projectiles, because they just weren't going as fast as with modern propellant, dropped quickly after 100.
Ooo!
I love the smell of BP!
cico7
Custom
The rifle is 100 yrs old 1921 build. So it's not a modern 44. So I'm cautious.
cico7
Custom
This is an over under rifle. 22 on top with a 2" .410 shot shell or 44GG. The 44mag cases will work for cases. I have not been able to find powder loads.
iklwa
Master Class
This is what I found upon doing a little digging (I like digging!).
"In addition to the shot shell, there also was a ball cartridge originally loaded with 30 grains of black powder and a .425" diameter round ball weighing 115 grains. A farmer or woodsman armed with one of the little guns, a handful of shot cartridges, and a couple of ball loads was well prepared to take a lot of game as he worked in the outdoors"
Sadly, it did not specify FFg or FFFg; however, using FFg powder would generate lower and safer pressures generally. It should also be pretty safe at 30 grains.
FFg is usually relegated to calibers of .50 and larger and old black powder balloon head cased shells.
Here is additional grist for your mill:
"Twenty two years after its introduction, the first .44 W.C.F. smokeless powder cartridge is found in Winchester's catalog No. 55, dated August, 1895. In its manufacture, Winchester used 17 grains of DuPont No. 2 which was a "bulk" type smokeless powder patented on August 22, 1893. DuPont's description of "bulk" smokeless powder indicated that it was to be loaded in "bulk" measure just like black powder.
In the .44 W.C.F., 17 grs. of DuPont No. 2 Bulk Smokeless occupied the same volume as 40 grs. of FFG. Velocity was cataloged at 1,300 f.p.s. for a 55 f.p.s. increase over the the black powder cartridge. To identify the new .44 W.C.F. smokeless powder cartridges from those containing black powder, which looked identical, Winchester put a "W" in a circle on the primer." Dupont #2 had a similar burn rate as today's IMR-4227. However, Unlike 17gr of Dupont #2, 17gr of IMR-4227 is not a case capacity load but is a published load. Also unlike Dupont #2, IMR-4227 is formulated in a way that retards burning which prevents high pressure spikes.
Lyman's 49th lists a max load, 17gr of IMR-4227 with a Lyman 427098. They claim 1,083fps with no pressure listed for Group I rifles like the Winchester 73'. I tested 17gr in my 20" MGM barrel I used for high pressure testing. 17gr with a 427098 resulted in 1,127fps (closely replicating modern Winchester Super-X ammo velocity) @ 9,500psi. I tested 20gr with a 43-215C (427098 replica) resulted in 1,418fps @ 16,500psi but also included .5cc of PSB shot buffer to keep the powder at the back of the case. IMR-4227 is position sensitive and could be why some of my early velocity tests were lower than the manual.
Lyman's 49th handloading manual shows a max load of 18.5gr of IMR-4227 with a Speer JHP@ 1,212fps. This load only gave me 1,097fps. 20gr of IMR-4227 produced 1,297fps but also created 12,000psi, just a tad over the 11,000psi max. A caseload (26gr) of IMR-4227 with the popular Magma type 200gr lead bullet resulted in 1,733fps but produced 20,913psi....only safe for Group II rifles like the Winchester 92/94 and Marlin's 1894. I am getting consistent 10 shot 4" groups at 100 yards.
22gr with a Winchester 200gr JSP (.425) produced 1,386fps at a lower 12,000psi, which closely replicated early Dupont #2 velocities. I also tested black powder loads in semi-balloon head cases and got a consistent 12,000psi, so I feel safe using 12,000psi loads in my Winchester 73 replica and revolvers with .425-.427 lead or jacketed bullets."
I hope this helps you on your way.
Have fun and wear safety glasses!
"In addition to the shot shell, there also was a ball cartridge originally loaded with 30 grains of black powder and a .425" diameter round ball weighing 115 grains. A farmer or woodsman armed with one of the little guns, a handful of shot cartridges, and a couple of ball loads was well prepared to take a lot of game as he worked in the outdoors"
Sadly, it did not specify FFg or FFFg; however, using FFg powder would generate lower and safer pressures generally. It should also be pretty safe at 30 grains.
FFg is usually relegated to calibers of .50 and larger and old black powder balloon head cased shells.
Here is additional grist for your mill:
"Twenty two years after its introduction, the first .44 W.C.F. smokeless powder cartridge is found in Winchester's catalog No. 55, dated August, 1895. In its manufacture, Winchester used 17 grains of DuPont No. 2 which was a "bulk" type smokeless powder patented on August 22, 1893. DuPont's description of "bulk" smokeless powder indicated that it was to be loaded in "bulk" measure just like black powder.
In the .44 W.C.F., 17 grs. of DuPont No. 2 Bulk Smokeless occupied the same volume as 40 grs. of FFG. Velocity was cataloged at 1,300 f.p.s. for a 55 f.p.s. increase over the the black powder cartridge. To identify the new .44 W.C.F. smokeless powder cartridges from those containing black powder, which looked identical, Winchester put a "W" in a circle on the primer." Dupont #2 had a similar burn rate as today's IMR-4227. However, Unlike 17gr of Dupont #2, 17gr of IMR-4227 is not a case capacity load but is a published load. Also unlike Dupont #2, IMR-4227 is formulated in a way that retards burning which prevents high pressure spikes.
Lyman's 49th lists a max load, 17gr of IMR-4227 with a Lyman 427098. They claim 1,083fps with no pressure listed for Group I rifles like the Winchester 73'. I tested 17gr in my 20" MGM barrel I used for high pressure testing. 17gr with a 427098 resulted in 1,127fps (closely replicating modern Winchester Super-X ammo velocity) @ 9,500psi. I tested 20gr with a 43-215C (427098 replica) resulted in 1,418fps @ 16,500psi but also included .5cc of PSB shot buffer to keep the powder at the back of the case. IMR-4227 is position sensitive and could be why some of my early velocity tests were lower than the manual.
Lyman's 49th handloading manual shows a max load of 18.5gr of IMR-4227 with a Speer JHP@ 1,212fps. This load only gave me 1,097fps. 20gr of IMR-4227 produced 1,297fps but also created 12,000psi, just a tad over the 11,000psi max. A caseload (26gr) of IMR-4227 with the popular Magma type 200gr lead bullet resulted in 1,733fps but produced 20,913psi....only safe for Group II rifles like the Winchester 92/94 and Marlin's 1894. I am getting consistent 10 shot 4" groups at 100 yards.
22gr with a Winchester 200gr JSP (.425) produced 1,386fps at a lower 12,000psi, which closely replicated early Dupont #2 velocities. I also tested black powder loads in semi-balloon head cases and got a consistent 12,000psi, so I feel safe using 12,000psi loads in my Winchester 73 replica and revolvers with .425-.427 lead or jacketed bullets."
I hope this helps you on your way.
Have fun and wear safety glasses!
cico7
Custom
wow that is great! thank you. I have not seen so much info .