Negligent Discharge

[Bassbob]

Years ago I belonged to this gun range that allowed several of the local police departments to train and qualify there for free. We shot against those guys several times and we always made most of them look pretty bad. That's no judgement on police in general, but it seems there were a lot of cops back then that only shot once a year when it was time to qualify.

 

[papa]

Yea, since 2012.

I've got you both beat. I was forced into retirement ( disabled ) in 2005. So there. It sure did knock me out of a few more $$$ each month though. ☹

 

[KillerFord1977]

I was always told by my father 2 things of advice (jokingly).
1) if you ever commit a crime, knock off a postal worker at the end so you go to the Fed Pen
2) If in a shootout after such Postal offense, run in a straight line. Cops cant shoot straight

 

[BET7]

Years ago I belonged to this gun range that allowed several of the local police departments to train and qualify there for free. We shot against those guys several times and we always made most of them look pretty bad. That's no judgement on police in general, but it seems there were a lot of cops back then that only shot once a year when it was time to qualify.

Yeah, I've heard several local police around me here, complain it a budget thing where they can't shoot as often as they'd like.

 

[BET7]

I've got you both beat. I was forced into retirement ( disabled ) in 2005. So there. It sure did knock me out of a few more $$$ each month though. ☹

Well my 2010 was the Official date. I actual "retired" while still working well before 2010 (if you ask some of my co-workers ).

 

[Bassbob]

Yeah, I've heard several local police around me here, complain it a budget thing where they can't shoot as often as they'd like.

As citizens they are free to shoot as often as they want. They just have to pay for their own ammo.

 

[BET7]

As citizens they are free to shoot as often as they want. They just have to pay for their own ammo.

Well, the ones around me, are also very cheap when it comes to paying for their own ammo.

 

[Bassbob]

Well, the ones around me, are also very cheap when it comes to paying for their own ammo.

If I were doing their job, I would want to make sure I was a very good shot. That takes practice.

 

[TSiWRX]

This was fantastically illustrated by the "dancing, back flipping" FBI agent and his gun, which he tried to catch as it was falling from him as he danced widely around.

Excellent! I'd forgotten about that one:

FBI Agent Charged After Dance Move Resulted In Accidental Shooting

After an agent's gun was fired inside a Colorado bar, he's now facing consequences and an internal FBI investigation.

www.npr.org

It seems that the gun was on the ground, though, and he discharged it when he attempted to pick it up (hence my warning about SAFELY picking up the dropped gun!) - but before I revisited the video, I also thought that he'd jacked off a round by trying to catch it after he'd flipped, too.

Good to cite that one, regardless, as it applies no matter what! Thanks!

 

[TSiWRX]

Years ago I belonged to this gun range that allowed several of the local police departments to train and qualify there for free. We shot against those guys several times and we always made most of them look pretty bad. That's no judgement on police in general, but it seems there were a lot of cops back then that only shot once a year when it was time to qualify.

Yeah, I've heard several local police around me here, complain it a budget thing where they can't shoot as often as they'd like.

Budget and time/personnel constraints (if the officers are training, they are not able to simultaneously patrol) conspire, as does local-level politics and views towards such training.

-----

As citizens they are free to shoot as often as they want. They just have to pay for their own ammo.

If I were doing their job, I would want to make sure I was a very good shot. That takes practice.

^ And unfortunately, this then becomes the case - for those who want to excel at their craft or even simply maintain a level of proficiency, it comes down to a personal pursuit.

I've seen many officers spend their own money on both class tuition, ammo, time, and transportation in order to get the training that they feel they *should* have, but for which they are not officially supported.

 

[benstt]

I had one after taking my first 1911 to the range almost 20 years ago. It had seven round mags so my practice was to go through the first six, then have a 7+1 for the last mag. I only fired the seven and didn't notice the slide didn't lock back on the last shot. I went home, took it out to clean it, pulled back the hammer because it makes it easier to get the spring plug out with the safety on, and then let the hammer fall. It went off, going through a mirror, a suit jacket and a sport coat, a layer of sheetrock, and stopped in a stud. It drove home to me just how much you have to ALWAYS remember your gun safety training and never assume anything. Now I always check the chamber before I set it down or case it up and before I do any cleaning.

 

[Bassbob]

Budget and time/personnel constraints (if the officers are training, they are not able to simultaneously patrol) conspire, as does local-level politics and views towards such training.

-----





^ And unfortunately, this then becomes the case - for those who want to excel at their craft or even simply maintain a level of proficiency, it comes down to a personal pursuit.

I've seen many officers spend their own money on both class tuition, ammo, time, and transportation in order to get the training that they feel they *should* have, but for which they are not officially supported.

It's a shame places like St. Louis aren't more interested in giving officers quality training. Or should I say they are less interested in spending that money there than they are giving kickbacks to friends and family of aldermen.

The classes and ammo and range time are tax deductible but with the new tax code most cops aren't making the kind of money that makes itemized deductions profitable for them.

 

[David N.]

My Dad always told me to never bring a loaded gun into the house. That was his rule. Agree or not, it taught me to always verify the status of my gun before I put it away in the gun case. I never pulled the trigger or dropped the hammer on any of my guns unless I was hunting or target shooting. Today I store my home defense weapon in a RapidSafe unloaded with a full magazine inserted.

 

[benstt]

Ceiling and the side wall ..
Really makes you scratch your head.

i told a guy the other day at the range:
“Would you mind if I point my pistol at you?”
he said: “ what , why would you say that??”
I said “because you keep pointing yours at me every time you rack a fresh mag or check an empty chamber !!!” Cut it the F!!K out !!!”

That's one of the things I HATE about gun stores. All the people that go in there and flag people with a rifle when they're checking it out. I've had words with some of them. They get irritated and assure me it's not loaded because they picked it up off the shelf.

 

[Bassbob]

My Dad always told me to never bring a loaded gun into the house. That was his rule. Agree or not, it taught me to always verify the status of my gun before I put it away in the gun case. I never pulled the trigger or dropped the hammer on any of my guns unless I was hunting or target shooting. Today I store my home defense weapon in a RapidSafe unloaded with a full magazine inserted.

So your self defense weapon is in a safe and unloaded?

 

[David N.]

So your self defense weapon is in a safe and unloaded?

So your self defense weapon is in a safe and unloaded?

That is correct. Why do you ask?

 

[TSiWRX]

... it taught me to always verify the status of my gun before I put it away in the gun case.

And there's the trick.


The canonical "Four Rules" starts off with "treat every weapon as if it is loaded," but the truth of the matter is that this is faulty thinking.

I still use it for beginners and kids (as it is a great baseline safety measure), but as soon as feasible, I move them to a higher level of Rule 1, which I've seen/heard several instructors I respect use as: "know the condition of the weapon." Why? Because as they advance down the road as shooters, they will come upon situations where that gun will ABSOLUTELY be "unloaded" in some form or another. And furthermore, because we should never assume, as canonical verbiage suggests, but rather, we should always know and verify.

I'm not preaching this because "I know better."

Rather, it's because of an embarrassing evolution during a training class I had with Varg Freeborn a few years ago.

Already not a new shooter at the time I took his class, I yet somehow still managed to step up to the line with a weapon that was *_not_* ready for the drill.

Why did that happen? It's because I became complacent and relied on what was supposed to be "Hot Range" rules, and simply assumed that the weapon was indeed loaded due to the circumstances of place and time (i.e. on a handgun training range). Instead, as a shooter, I should have minded - knew, and verified if-necessary - the condition of my weapon.

This is very easily reasoned-through via the old adage of "if the gun isn't in your hands, you don't know what condition it is in." This is the reason why we physically chamber-check and render-safe a weapon - even if we *know* it to be unloaded because the person handing it to us had just checked it to be unloaded and clear - as soon as it has been passed to our hands from another's. Similarly, this is why any gun which has not been under our direct control gets physically safety-checked as soon as our hands are on it.

It's not to look cool in the gun store. It's not about this action being convention in our community (which, of-course, it is). It's about actually knowing that the gun is in a certain physical state.

Good post, David N.

 

[papa]

That's one of the things I HATE about gun stores. All the people that go in there and flag people with a rifle when they're checking it out. I've had words with some of them. They get irritated and assure me it's not loaded because they picked it up off the shelf.

I went Northern IND. to my grandpa's in 1972 when I got out of high school . He wanted to get me a job as a crane oiler so I could move up to an operator eventually. While there we went to a local gun store and he wanted to look at a used shotgun on the rack. The salesman got it and handed it to grandpa without checking to see if it were loaded. Grandpa didn't check it either . He just started throwing it to his shoulder ( always pointed up towards ceiling ) to check for how it fit him and swinging as if following a bird . Then he racked the slide and out popped a shell.

Grandpa handed the gun back to the salesman and asked why a gun on the shelf was loaded. Salesman said well we loaned it out to a guy to try out and I guess he left it loaded when he brought it back.

I have always wondered just how many people handled that shotgun while it was loaded without knowing it was.

 

[Bassbob]

That is correct. Why do you ask?

No reason.

 

[Bassbob]

I think the "Treat every gun as if it was loaded" rule really is meant to apply to safely handling the firearm, pointing it in a safe direction, etc..