SaltyMonkey
Professional
Bummer. Thanks. Was looking for a cc HK to compliment my VP9 recently ordered.
New HK micro: SFP9CC
- Thread starter HansGruber
- Start date
Hammer67
Professional
The closest thing currently in the lineup would be the VP9SK, at least as far as striker-fired.
Bassbob
Emissary
I was too. This is my solution and what a solution it is. This thing is ridiculous.
For scale, that is a Microtech UTX-85. So not the full size UTX
WellArmed
Master Class
My solution was a Hellcat. The only feature HK would have that I want is the paddle release, but I'm not sure that feature is worth the HK premium as well as having to start all over with buying $45 mags, holster, sights, etc.
If they were the first to release a hammer fired DA/SA micro 9mm, they would sell like hotcakes IMHO. I am not sure that the late to the party micro 9mm that's at the upper end of the price range for the gun and mags will sell a lot in the long run. With a DA/SA version, they'd be on an island to themselves while all the striker fired fish are competing against each other.
If they were the first to release a hammer fired DA/SA micro 9mm, they would sell like hotcakes IMHO. I am not sure that the late to the party micro 9mm that's at the upper end of the price range for the gun and mags will sell a lot in the long run. With a DA/SA version, they'd be on an island to themselves while all the striker fired fish are competing against each other.
HansGruber
Ronin
Unfortunately, they won’t be the first…
See the FN Reflex…although technically, it’s SAO.
Hammer67
Professional
The P2000SK is pretty much the same size with the same capacity (10 rds w/flush fit mag). At 6.4" long and 4.5" high, I don't know how much more "micro" you'd really want to get.
HansGruber
Ronin
If you put the thin grips on, it is a trim little piece.
Hammer67
Professional
Yup. I used to have one, and I still kinda kick myself for letting go of it. It's kind of a sleeper in the HK lineup.
WellArmed
Master Class
That's not a traditional DA/SA pistol with an exposed hammer. I'm thinking a P30sk the size of a P365 or Hellcat micro. Springfield tried with a single stack, but it was too large for what it was, the trigger was bad, and so was the execution.
The P2000SK is bigger in every aspect as well as heavier than a Hellcat, P365, etc. It's a typical double stacks subcompact. It's not a pocket sized gun. I can fit and easily remove my Hellcat from a normal size (not tactical or cargo) pants pocket.
Hammer67
Professional
Ok. The grip height is the same as the P365, which is the part that you need to worry about most when it comes to printing.
Don't hold your breath for a DA/SA any smaller than that from any manufacturer.
WellArmed
Master Class
Why not? It's possible and there's demand for it. I know many on HKPro were disappointed when the information came out that the new micro offering was going to be striking fired.
It's been done several times already in DAO with single stacks starting with the Kel Tec P11 which was a 10+1 SAO handgun the size of a P365 but weighted several onces less. Heck, they even have SAO 1911 variants that are micro in size. All of these are much smaller and lighter than the P2000sk or any other subcompact DA/SA pistol on the market.
It's just a matter of time before a company introduces one. I am hoping that Sig or HK are the manufacturers who finally do.
Hammer67
Professional
Despite what one may be led to believe if they hang out on a forum dedicated to mostly DA/SA folks, I wouldn't take what you're hearing on a place like HKPro as an indicator of a significant segment of the gun market in the year 2023. The number of people asking for an expensive DA/SA the size of the Hellcat is comparatively miniscule. Why would manufacturers bother coming up with a new design and tooling to manufacture something more complicated and more costly to produce, for a very small market and limited sales, when they're selling Hellcats and P365s hand over fist right now?
And I say the above as someone who owns more DA/SA pistols than strikers. But I don't kid myself that my own slightly outdated, idiosyncratic tastes represent a significant portion of the market. They don't.
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Hammer67
Professional
Yeah, and it's never really taken off. Wonder why. And you're referring to SAO single stacks, so not really the same thing, and with a couple exceptions, micro single stacks have been jam-o-matics.
Sig will never introduce one, and I'm not just speculating on that - I've heard that directly from a higher up at Sig.
WellArmed
Master Class
Micro single stacks have not been jam-o-matics. They've been carried and very popular long before the micro 9mms came along. Most people carried micro 380s and 9mms....
I know SAO single stacks aren't the same thing. I brought them up to point out the fact that DA/SA pistols can be done in that size. If a 1911, hammer fired SAO, and striker-fired can be made in a small platform, so can a DA/SA.
The XD-E didn't take off because of it's size, trigger, and execution. There was a lot of excitement when they were first released (from me included), until the bad reviews started to come out. The same thing happened with the S&W CSX. Everyone was interested and there was a lot of buzz up until the reviews came out by influencers and those who purchased one which also turned me off.
There is a market for DA/SA handguns period in all shapes and sizes. I am not sure why you think that the demographic that perfers DA/SA pistols who still buys HKs, CZs, Beretta, and Sig DA/SA subcompact would not also like a micro pistol with the same action. It's not just on HKPro, but also on other major forums. There is a market for it, and I don't understand the logic to say that there's a market for a P2000SK because of it's small compact size, then go on to say that if a simular offering was available that was a little smaller as to compete with the P365, Hellcat, and other offerings, they wouldn't be desired.
As far as DA/SA pistols being "outdated," there will always be for the foreseeable future a significant demand for revolvers, 1911s, DA/SA handguns even if striker-fired sells more despite what all the naysayers proclaim. They might not sell as many as striker-fired handguns, but they still sell well and there's still big demand.
Hammer67
Professional
It isn't just my logic, apparently. It's also the logic of every single gun manufacturer who hasn't seen fit to produce what you're asking for. If there was a tempting market they would; they don't because there isn't. There really isn't any speculative juju going on here.- the explanation is simple and obvious.
I specifically said "slightly outdated," not outdated entirely. I know they still sell, but in much smaller numbers than they did a decade or two ago. But if you think that's what the majority of the gun buying public wants these days, you're kidding yourself. Most of the manufacturers of DA/SA guns have shrunk their lines over the years for one obvious reason - they don't sell like they used to. Just look at Sig as an obvious example - they've pared their DA/SA line down considerably, and that's not because they were selling like hotcakes.
I never claimed the market for the P2000SK is anything other than small these days. I bet if you looked at HK's sales figures, they do not sell many of them at all in a given year, compared to VP9s. It's the niche buyer who has very specific tastes who's going to buy a P2000sk. Will there always be niche buyers who prefer such things? Of course. But as I said above, you're looking at it as a niche consumer, not as a manufacturing company.
Again - I get where you're coming from, and I relate to it somewhat on a personal taste basis. But I think you think the DA/SA market is way bigger and more commercially viable than it actually is. And to bring this full circle - why do you think HK is about to produce the first truly new design they've come up with in a decade (which was striker design, btw), and it's not a DA/SA? Why do you think that is?
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WellArmed
Master Class
Sigh, I'm not sure why you're so flustered and are turning my hopes for a DA/SA pistol into a long debate. You first claimed that the P2000sk was similar size and a great opinion because of it's small size, but then when I point out thar it's bigger than the other micro 9mm opinions, your argument turn into no one wants or desires a small DA/SA pistol.
I already agreed your point. Micro 9mms with 10+1 or more capacity have only been a thing for 5 or so years. Manufacters are just recently jumping into the the market to complete with the P365. The fact that no one has offered a DA/SA version yet doesn't mean they will not in the future or that they is no market for them. Glocks came out in 1982 IIRC, but it took years before manufacturers released a DA/SA polymer frame pistols in simular sizes as the G17, G19, and G26.
Other than that and as I pointed out, the two hammer fired options in the XD-E and S&W CSX were subpar at best. Even if they were striking fired they would have been a flop.
I don’t believe that's true at all. I think DA/SA pistols are selling and being manufactured more now than in the past. It's just that striker fired pistols are selling at a greater rate.
While Sig may have reduced some of their metal frame DA/SA lines, they still offer DA/SA pistols that are doing well. CZ and other manufacturers are also increased their hammer-fired offerings. Which includes S&W, Springfield, CZ, and Taurus.
WellArmed
Master Class
You're argument is a fallacy. I recently had this same argument with someone who stated revolvers were also dying. That they were more popular in that past, and they were dying because semiautos sales were much, much higher....
There was an entire thread of people making your same argument applied to revolvers. That because semiautos were so popular and more popular today than revolvers, that revolvers were dying and sales were falling. That more revolvers were being carried, owned, and purchased in the past vs today... I had to point out that although sales dropped for revolvers after Trump was elected in 2016 and demand dropped, revolver sales have NOT fallen. That it is a fallacy and illogical to come to the conclusion that just because semiautos have increasingly sold more does NOT mean that there isn't money in or demand for revolvers. Revolvers are still over a billion dollar annually in sales niche in sales. While demand for semiautos have increased faster than revolvers, the demand for revolvers has increased as well and is greater today vs in the past. I believe that same phenomenon applies to DA/SA handguns.
| Year | Semiautos | Revolvers |
|---|---|---|
| 2021 | 6,751,919 | 1,159,918 |
| 2020 | 6,148,877 | 830,800 |
| 2019 | 3,046,013 | 580,601 |
| 2018 | 3,881,158 | 664,835 |
| 2017 | 3,691,010 | 720,917 |
| 2016 | 4,720,075 | 856,291 |
| 2015 | 3,557,199 | 885,259 |
| 2014 | 3,633,454 | 744,047 |
| 2013 | 4,441,726 | 725,282 |
| 2012 | 3,487,883 | 667,357 |
| 2011 | 2,598,133 | 572,857 |
| 2010 | 2,258,450 | 558,927 |
| 2009 | 1,868,258 | 547,195 |
| 2008 | 1,387,271 | 431,753 |
| 2007 | 1,219,664 | 391,334 |
While DA/SA handguns may have been more prevalent in the 60 years ago or so, I believe manufacturers still weren't producing that many of them annually compared to today. I believe manufacturers are sell more DA/SA, 1911s, revolvers, and all of the handguns everyone likes to pontificate aren't popular today versus anytime in the past when they were the first/primary choice. Despite striker-fired handguns being more popular, the aforementioned are STILL very popular amongst even amongst those who own striker fired handguns. There is still billions of dollars in sales for all of the aforementioned.
I do not agree with you that those who currently already own micro 9mms like the Hellcat and P365 who are ALSO buying all of the plethora versions of DA/SA CZ pistol including polymer P07 & P09, all of the old and new Beretta 92 various plus the polymer Px4, all of the HK variants from the USP, P30, P2000, etc, to Springfield's new SA-35, to the offerings Sig still has, to FN's FNX, to even Tauruses budget, etc wouldn't ALSO be interested in a carry sized version.
We can just agree to disagree because I believe if a manufacture offered a reliable, dependable, and attractive DA/SA micro 9mm with 10+1 capability that the gun owners who have spent and continue to spend thousands for their multiple Sig, Berettas, CZs, HK, etc DA/SA handguns would also be in the market for a smaller carry size offering.
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Hammer67
Professional
You don't have to believe a single thing I said. You can merely look at what manufacturers offer, and what they don't, or have scaled back on. And if your argument is accurate, then we can expect to see micro DA/SAs hitting the market, because sufficient demand exists, right? Let's revisit in a while this and see?
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