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New Merchant Code Approved for Card Purchases of Guns, Ammunition

Jfal said:
Almost all of my LGS's offer 2-3% discount for cash or check vs. CC on all gun purchases (and everything they sell). I've only made one gun purchase using a CC. Ammo, however, I buy almost entirely in bulk online. I guess the feds will soon know how much I practice. Can't afford to give up access to range ammo. Local shops have tons of high-dollar JHP's, but cheaper FMJ range ammo is not common at any LGS I go to (10-15 in my region). I'm not paying $1/round++ for 9mm range ammo.
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I'd say the last 10-12 guns I bought were online and online, you use a credit card because it's the safest thing to use.

Yeah, it's a free(ish) country and yeah we earned that right. I still don't think the government needs to know what guns or how much ammo I buy.
 
mikep said:
Nj requires a FOID for all gun and ammo purchases and an additional permit for each handgun purchases. The card is a lifetime deal and takes about 2-3 months to get and requires state and local background checks and fingerprinting. There is no test required (yet) but they want to mandate a gun safety class.
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Fingerprinted for a RIGHT? WTH? Good god what do you have to do for your 1st amendment right?
 
I worry that a feature (i.e. a foreseeable or intended consequence) of this new code is to destroy small business. Credit card companies like Visa determine code assignments based on volume of sales. I do not expect that Academy Sports and Outdoors will lose their ability to be coded as a 5941 (Sporting Goods) retailer, or that Cabela's/Bass Pro will lose the ability to be classified as a 5561 (Camp Dealers) retailer. Even Pawn Shops are allotted a specialized code (5933). The only businesses that I see being forced into the new category are small, local gun stores.
 
I was under the impression that some governmental entity already was aware of approximately how many guns I own since I fill out paperwork for each purchase at my FFL. If this isn't going into a database then I wish I could stop with the paperwork (annoys me). The credit card companies do this with every aspect of our lives already, the monthly breakdown of our expenses. I already fill out the multi gun form if I happen to purchase more than 1 firearm. I don't plan on changing any purchasing patterns since I see this as an after the fact piece of information, which could lead to my biggest concern, limits placed on purchases. I would think that my online ammo stores already keep track of my purchases and frequency of purchases for my "profile". I don't plan on inconveniencing myself over information that I feel is already available but that is only me.
 
mikep said:
Nj requires a FOID for all gun and ammo purchases and an additional permit for each handgun purchases. The card is a lifetime deal and takes about 2-3 months to get and requires state and local background checks and fingerprinting. There is no test required (yet) but they want to mandate a gun safety class.
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hopefully, the people with the current FOID cards, will be grandfathered in.

which unlike my state, they passed a mag capacity limit, with NO grandfathering in of what we already own.

i know, 2 different subjects, but just hope and pray current FOID card holders get that "privilege" of being grandfathered.

the gun safety class, i hope for your sake, is a "one and done" as well.
 
Jfal said:
Almost all of my LGS's offer 2-3% discount for cash or check vs. CC on all gun purchases (and everything they sell). I've only made one gun purchase using a CC. Ammo, however, I buy almost entirely in bulk online. I guess the feds will soon know how much I practice. Can't afford to give up access to range ammo. Local shops have tons of high-dollar JHP's, but cheaper FMJ range ammo is not common at any LGS I go to (10-15 in my region). I'm not paying $1/round++ for 9mm range ammo.
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the cc fee "might be", that the LGS gets charged by the bank for the credit card transactions. which is why they'd discount for cash, debit, or checks.

in fact, i think that is the "usual" cc fee the banks charge the retailers, 2% to 5%
 
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mikep said:
Oh yeah, and only one handgun purchase every 30 days and each handgun permit costs $21.
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doesn't VA also only allow 1 gun purchase a month.??

you know, they can "limit" how many guns we buy, but we are still gonna buy.

i still need/want someone in the gooberment to show me positive proof, all these measures are keeping firearms out of the criminals hands.
 
southtex said:
I was under the impression that some governmental entity already was aware of approximately how many guns I own since I fill out paperwork for each purchase at my FFL. If this isn't going into a database then I wish I could stop with the paperwork (annoys me). The credit card companies do this with every aspect of our lives already, the monthly breakdown of our expenses. I already fill out the multi gun form if I happen to purchase more than 1 firearm. I don't plan on changing any purchasing patterns since I see this as an after the fact piece of information, which could lead to my biggest concern, limits placed on purchases. I would think that my online ammo stores already keep track of my purchases and frequency of purchases for my "profile". I don't plan on inconveniencing myself over information that I feel is already available but that is only me.
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Well, you are confused and uneducated on the subject, which is exactly why all the convoluted rules and BS exists in the first place. To confuse you. It's most likely true that the feds are covertly ignoring the part of the LAW which states that the recorded transaction/background check for a form 4473 must be destroyed after 88 days and is NOT allowed to be digitized for purposes of data retention ( government database of firearm owners), but why would you just assume they are breaking the law and say "F it", what difference does it make and give them even more information, information that does NOT come with a caveat in the law stating they are not allowed to collect that information for a database?

Here are the facts. A copy of the 4473 which states the serial number and type of weapon is NOT transferred to the government during your NICS check when you buy a gun from an FFL. They are not allowed to have that form or collect them for a database. The only information they have is the type and number of weapons. To obtain the information on a 4473 they must physically go to the place of purchase and look at the paper form 4473. It is illegal for them to digitize and retain that. And even the record of the transaction ( this is the info they were given when your LGS called in to the NICS for your background check) is by law required to be destroyed before 88 days have passed.

We can argue whether or not the feds can already look at your CC purchases or coerce retailers to give them information about your purchases, but that isn't the point. To do that they would have to expend a lot of resources, man hours, etc. Why the hell would anyone be ok just handing them that information already complete and usable on a silver platter?
 
Bassbob said:
Well, you are confused and uneducated on the subject, which is exactly why all the convoluted rules and BS exists in the first place. To confuse you. It's most likely true that the feds are covertly ignoring the part of the LAW which states that the recorded transaction/background check for a form 4473 must be destroyed after 88 days and is NOT allowed to be digitized for purposes of data retention ( government database of firearm owners), but why would you just assume they are breaking the law and say "F it", what difference does it make and give them even more information, information that does NOT come with a caveat in the law stating they are not allowed to collect that information for a database?

Here are the facts. A copy of the 4473 which states the serial number and type of weapon is NOT transferred to the government during your NICS check when you buy a gun from an FFL. They are not allowed to have that form or collect them for a database. The only information they have is the type and number of weapons. To obtain the information on a 4473 they must physically go to the place of purchase and look at the paper form 4473. It is illegal for them to digitize and retain that. And even the record of the transaction ( this is the info they were given when your LGS called in to the NICS for your background check) is by law required to be destroyed before 88 days have passed.

We can argue whether or not the feds can already look at your CC purchases or coerce retailers to give them information about your purchases, but that isn't the point. To do that they would have to expend a lot of resources, man hours, etc. Why the hell would anyone be ok just handing them that information already complete and usable on a silver platter?
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Well thank you for the clarity. So you are saying that after 88 days they will have no access to my gun purchase. I only ask this because a fellow co worker was visited at his home by the ATF as the last person of record for a 12ga semi that was confiscated at the border. This incident (seizure/visit) was roughly 3 years after he no longer owned the gun. It took roughly 2 months to get the matter cleared.
 
southtex said:
Well thank you for the clarity. So you are saying that after 88 days they will have no access to my gun purchase. I only ask this because a fellow co worker was visited at his home by the ATF as the last person of record for a 12ga semi that was confiscated at the border. This incident (seizure/visit) was roughly 3 years after he no longer owned the gun. It took roughly 2 months to get the matter cleared.
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A gun trace can be done from the factory to the distributor to the point of sale. The 4473 at the point of sale identifies who bought it and that is where the paperwork trail ends. From there it is shoe leather and interviews to determine who the last person was who possessed it before it was used in a crime.
 
Financial institutions act in their own, and their shareholders' interest. That is why they have all the money. After reading the original article I see no value to the financial institutions, other than perhaps to make it easier to search and respond to requests from law enforcement. They allude to having some moral responsibility. When did financial institutions start that?
 
southtex said:
Well thank you for the clarity. So you are saying that after 88 days they will have no access to my gun purchase. I only ask this because a fellow co worker was visited at his home by the ATF as the last person of record for a 12ga semi that was confiscated at the border. This incident (seizure/visit) was roughly 3 years after he no longer owned the gun. It took roughly 2 months to get the matter cleared.
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As Hayes pointed out, when a gun is found at a crime scene LEO, through the serial number, can trace the gun through the manufacturer, to the point of purchase at which point they must physically go to the point of purchase to see the 4473 and determine the original purchaser of the gun. And the record of that transaction ( the NICS check) is by law destroyed after 88 days. At least that's how it's supposed to be.
 
Yes I agree with the above statements that currently there is legwork involved and probably shouldn't have used the tern "government entity". A few years back I had several guns stolen so I went to my LGS and had them print me my purchases for the guns. I knew my record would be on file. I do agree if this law were to pass it would make personal invasion and tracking easier. I guess I believe some of this happens already. When I first saw this a couple days ago I went and checked my card statements and found the retailers were listed by name (obviously) but the gun/ammo charges fell into Merchandise and Supplies for categorization. I also agree that financial institutions are responsible to shareholders, customers, and to act in good faith. I can't see them willingly agreeing to this. I do have concerns on an attempt for (purchase) limit restrictions as the information is gathered. Not for sure how that would work for all states. Varying restrictions are currently in place in states. I don't see my purchasing behaviour changing anytime soon.
 
Keystone19250 said:
Done with online and cash only in LG Stores. Let’s face it, sign of the times as the government in general is doing everything they can to track what we do, where we go, what we buy and overall who we are. I’m sure not in my lifetime but eventually there will be no cash as everything in a point of sale or denomination transfer will be digital.
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I hate to break this to you, but >90% of the money in our country is digital and exists only on computerized ledgers. And while I call it digital, going back to the founding of our country, a lot of the money only existed on bank ledgers, albeit on written ledgers and at a lower ratio than it is today.
 
Though as it was stated that the Credit Card is the safest method of a sale, but only in terms of disputing fraudulent charges, or not receiving goods, defective and return items.

I visited my online retailer to explore purchase method options and found that they offer prepaid Gift Cards. One can opt to buy any denomination of these GC’s with a credit card and as for items... they won’t show up on the monthly CC statement.
Essentially a prepaid gift card is cash sale and since these GC’s can be sent digitally, the redeemable funds are instantly available for use.

Worth considering?
 
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