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NRA Board Fails to Take Corrective Action

Bassbob said:
This is bullshit dude. I’ve been a life member for 30 plus years. If it wasn’t for the NRA you would use your gun at the range if you were lucky and nowhere else. There sure as hell wouldn’t be any RTC going on in this country.
It’s one thing to question the current leadership, which we all do, but you need to kill your TV. You guys keep up this shite and YOU will be the ones to achieve what Hillary and other anti gun politicians never could. Silencing the NRA and gun owners. If you think anyone in Congress is afraid of the FPC or the GOA, you’re on some good drugs.
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The NRA likes things the way they are: limited. That's not the second amendment.
They support semi auto gun ownership only. They support licensing (and why wouldn't they? They make a killing with courses) and age restrictions and banning certain things.
The leadership is the problem, sure, in part, but so is their lack of restoring rights or at least the wanting to. If they would even fight to restore rights I would think about joining.
 
Wannabewoodsman said:
The NRA likes things the way they are: limited. That's not the second amendment.
They support semi auto gun ownership only. They support licensing (and why wouldn't they? They make a killing with courses) and age restrictions and banning certain things.
The leadership is the problem, sure, in part, but so is their lack of restoring rights or at least the wanting to. If they would even fight to restore rights I would think about joining.
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Name one other single organization that has any teeth at all that is lobbying congress for full restoration of 2A rights ( that is, full auto and completely unrestricted right to own the same stuff the government has). For the record, I agree that the entire reason for the 2A sort of hinges on the fact that we should be able to arm ourselves however we see fit and that the government should not be allowed to restrict us from owning the same weapons they have.

The fact is though if the NRA had been out there advocating this no one would have ever taken them seriously and you would right now only own the crappy little revolver you managed to hide under the floorboard. You no doubt understand how hard of a fight it has been just to get RTC in this country and to keep the right to own "Assault weapons" and " High capacity" magazines. How do you think it would have went if instead of fighting for those things the NRA spent any political clout it had arguing that we should all be able to have unrestricted access to automatic machine guns, rocket launchers, tanks, high explosives, etc.. ? They would have lost all support from every politician and 75-90% of the populace and would have been designated a terrorist organization.


Furthermore you are incorrect when you say they support licensing. The entire reason there isn't a national database of gun owners right now is because the NRA got that little bit at the end attached to the Brady Bill. Sure, it can be argued successfully that the government has not so secretly reniged on the deal not to keep that information, but the fact is they are law bound to destroy NICS records 88 days after the transaction. Of course I am willing to change my mind if you want to provide some examples.
 
Thank you, Bob. You have articulated very well how I feel also.

In our country, we have seen a huge shift towards people being tried on social media instead of in the courts. WLP may indeed have gotten comfortable in his position and either deliberately or by delegating too much power and authority, mismanaged our organization. We are spending a ton of money on attorneys right now, but I think we should let this play out.

I read last night that one or two current Board members may join some of the membership in a legal action in an effort to salvage the NRA from dissolution by the AG of NY. I hate it that we are airing our dirty laundry in public, but it is not time to abandon ship.
 
I agree, we all have our opinions on this, but you have to look at some of the stuff going on with them with an open mind, a good portion on the board members we voted for have resigned, well known people, so there is something going on, I am not against the NRA, I canceled my membership cause I can’t support them until they get these issues worked out. I was a faithful member since I was 21, I may in the future be a member again, I have not talked or said anything negative about them, just I can’t support them right now. Also, I received many emails and letters, but if you log into your account you can uncheck the stuff you don’t want.

Edit: my original post from last night, last one I will post in this thread
 
Annihilator said:
I agree, we all have our opinions on this, but you have to look at some of the stuff going on with them with an open mind, a good portion on the board members we voted for have resigned, well known people, so there is something going on, I am not against the NRA, I canceled my membership cause I can’t support them until they get these issues worked out. I was a faithful member since I was 21, I may in the future be a member again, I have not talked or said anything negative about them, just I can’t support them right now. Also, I received many emails and letters, but if you log into your account you can uncheck the stuff you don’t want.

Edit: my original post from last night, last one I will post in this thread
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GunTalk had one of the defense lawyers on the show, and he was shocked at some of the testimony from the NRA leadership under cross-examination. Well have to wait and see how this all turns out. I hope the NRA is still around afterwards.
 
Some time ago there was another thread similar to this. I made a couple comments and before it was all over I got chastised pretty well because I didn't just agree with some other's opinions of WLP's guilt as charged. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion based on whatever personal knowledge they might have, and/or whatever other's opinions they accept and I fully support that. It wasn't a matter of my 'not believing' anyone, and I hope that finally became clear.

However, what it did indicate is my fervent belief that every man, woman, and child in our beloved USofA, and regardless of the charges, is entitled to their day in court. Once that day happens regarding WLP, and based on the outcome, I'll make my decision then how to/or not to punish the entire organization. It really bothers me to see so many want to punish the entire organization, or maybe just not realizing they are doing exactly that, for the opinions and perceptions of some.

WLP is not the NRA even though he does represent it in every circumstance. And I hate it to my core that the organization is taking the beating it is over this mess. Abandoning the whole organization weakens the best opportunities, by far, of any organization to support our 2nd amendment rights. And joining other, smaller and far less influential pro 2nd organizations don't help anything. All others combined do not have the political clout of the NRA and the anti 2nd establishment knows that. The bottom line is simply this ..... there is no other pro 2nd organization with the political clout through sheer membership numbers of the NRA. You can rest assured there are many anti 2nd politicians foaming at the mouth every time they see, hear, or read of even one member bailing out. The smaller the organization, the less clout it has....... and they know it!

All I'm saying is this ...... members intentionally weakening the strongest pro 2nd amendment organization ever, and especially right now when there is without question the most anti 2nd sentiment in congress since probably the 80's, it just doesn't make sense to me to cut our own throats. I'm not suggesting anyone should not follow their best judgement on this thing, only that there is always "more than one way to skin a cat". And as I see it right now, the cats aren't abandoning a sinking ship, they're much the cause of the sinking.

Me personally, I'll maintain/retain my membership in the organization unless and until WLP, or anyone else is convicted beyond a reasonable doubt of these or similar charges. I won't make additional donations other than my regular dues until then. It just doesn't seem right or natural to punish the entire organization and the millions of non-member gun owners across America for the actions/accused actions of a few. And that's exactly what's happening now ..... bleeding the 'organization' of clout through dropping/declining memberships.

I can promise you no anti 2nd politician gives a rat's azz about the charges against WLP or anyone else, whether proven or not, but they truly enjoy watching the organization being harmed. Below I've C/P'd the first and second paragraph of the explanation of "Presumption of Innocence". It's the same presumption I hope to enjoy if ever I'm accused of a crime.

"The presumption of innocence is a legal principle that every person accused of any crime is considered innocent until proven guilty. Under the presumption of innocence, the legal burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which must present compelling evidence to the trier of fact (a judge or a jury). If the prosecution does not prove the charges true, then the person is acquitted of the charges. The prosecution must in most cases prove that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused must be acquitted. The opposite system is a presumption of guilt.

In many countries and under many legal systems, including common law and civil law systems (not to be confused with the other kind of civil law, which deals with non-criminal legal issues), the presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial. It is also an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 11."

Just a little something to ponder y'all. No offense to anyone was intended .... hope none was inferred.
 
With all due respect to Bassbob and others of the same mind:

I have been a Life Member since I was asked to upgrade to assist in the revolt in the 1970s which resulted in the NRA become pro rights for the first time in its history. Since then I have upgraded that membership considerably and made constant contributions to the ILA and other parts of the NRA.

Unfortunately, like too many other voting members, I gradually settled into just giving them money and paid more attention to my business and personal life. That changed when a Board Member approached me and started sharing what was going on within the organization. That one Board Member became three Board Members and finally after Oliver North became President he started sharing both considerable information along with proof in the form of copies of receipts and internal documents with me and some other major NRA contributors. (Oliver North and I have known each other since the Reagan years.) I have shared PDFs of actual documents with some others on this forum as well as to others I know and trust. (My fear is that we have some documents those liberal b@$t@rds in NY don't have and want to take the chance of public sharing.)

With North in the lead, a number of NRA major contributors and several sitting Board Members tried to address these issues in Indianapolis at the Annual Meeting. As a result North was stripped of his position and threatened with legal action if he did not leave Indy immediately. This took place the day before the meeting. The rest of us tried to carry on but were blocked at every turn. The first trick was even finding the meeting, the second the meeting being closed to anyone who was not a Life Member, and finally the meeting being shut down and rescheduled two days after the show and meeting were supposed to be over. A number of us had to change plane reservations and extend our hotels to stay for the meeting. Finally, we had to again hunt for the meeting using two way radios to keep everyone informed. When we finally found the meeting place, the leaders made an executive decision to go into executive session thus barring admittance to the meeting for all but the NRA Executive Committee. They have not had the bylaws required Annual Meeting since. They just cancelled this year's annual meeting after moving it around several times. All of this costs money to the people who were planning on being there because of changed and cancelled plane flights and sometimes hotel fees.

We are talking about millions of dollars being inappropriately spent. This is, in part, money often contributed by members sacrificing to pay their dues, and also money that some of us gave because we believed in the NRA. I still believe in the NRA as do many others. Some of us have made it clear to WLP and other cronies that as long as he has a job there and the others are still also sucking up NRA funds are still on the Board that we will no longer give them any more money. Instead a number of us are escrowing money (now around $35,000,000) we would normally have given to be released to the NRA when the specified people are gone and the Board reformed.

I for one do not want to give up on the NRA, and I believe it can and should be saved. We need all members to at least send letters to WLP and Board Members expressing their outrage even if you still send in dues. Also remember that once someone is at least a regular Life Member they do not need to contribute any money to remain a voting member.
 
ChanceMcCall said:
With all due respect to Bassbob and others of the same mind:

I have been a Life Member since I was asked to upgrade to assist in the revolt in the 1970s which resulted in the NRA become pro rights for the first time in its history. Since then I have upgraded that membership considerably and made constant contributions to the ILA and other parts of the NRA.

Unfortunately, like too many other voting members, I gradually settled into just giving them money and paid more attention to my business and personal life. That changed when a Board Member approached me and started sharing what was going on within the organization. That one Board Member became three Board Members and finally after Oliver North became President he started sharing both considerable information along with proof in the form of copies of receipts and internal documents with me and some other major NRA contributors. (Oliver North and I have known each other since the Reagan years.) I have shared PDFs of actual documents with some others on this forum as well as to others I know and trust. (My fear is that we have some documents those liberal b@$t@rds in NY don't have and want to take the chance of public sharing.)

With North in the lead, a number of NRA major contributors and several sitting Board Members tried to address these issues in Indianapolis at the Annual Meeting. As a result North was stripped of his position and threatened with legal action if he did not leave Indy immediately. This took place the day before the meeting. The rest of us tried to carry on but were blocked at every turn. The first trick was even finding the meeting, the second the meeting being closed to anyone who was not a Life Member, and finally the meeting being shut down and rescheduled two days after the show and meeting were supposed to be over. A number of us had to change plane reservations and extend our hotels to stay for the meeting. Finally, we had to again hunt for the meeting using two way radios to keep everyone informed. When we finally found the meeting place, the leaders made an executive decision to go into executive session thus barring admittance to the meeting for all but the NRA Executive Committee. They have not had the bylaws required Annual Meeting since. They just cancelled this year's annual meeting after moving it around several times. All of this costs money to the people who were planning on being there because of changed and cancelled plane flights and sometimes hotel fees.

We are talking about millions of dollars being inappropriately spent. This is, in part, money often contributed by members sacrificing to pay their dues, and also money that some of us gave because we believed in the NRA. I still believe in the NRA as do many others. Some of us have made it clear to WLP and other cronies that as long as he has a job there and the others are still also sucking up NRA funds are still on the Board that we will no longer give them any more money. Instead a number of us are escrowing money (now around $35,000,000) we would normally have given to be released to the NRA when the specified people are gone and the Board reformed.

I for one do not want to give up on the NRA, and I believe it can and should be saved. We need all members to at least send letters to WLP and Board Members expressing their outrage even if you still send in dues. Also remember that once someone is at least a regular Life Member they do not need to contribute any money to remain a voting member.
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Brother I am perfectly willing to do that. Clearly i am not privvy to the inside information you are. I am a voting Life member though. If you wanted to PM me names, etc.. of people I should write these letters to that would be great.
 
Chance, can just anyone take advantage of the escrow account you've mentioned? If so, how? I could possibly see that as a viable alternative.

At the same time I'm concerned for the benefit of the organization in the interim. There will be astronomical legal costs associated with the upcoming legal actions since the NY AG's charges, as I understand, are included to dissolve the entire cooporation.

Thanks, Joe
 
jumpinjoe said:
Chance, can just anyone take advantage of the escrow account you've mentioned? If so, how? I could possibly see that as a viable alternative.

At the same time I'm concerned for the benefit of the organization in the interim. There will be astronomical legal costs associated with the upcoming legal actions since the NY AG's charges, as I understand, are included to dissolve the entire cooporation.

Thanks, Joe
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I think so. I'm not the one who set it up so I will email him tonight. There was an escrow agreement I was required to sign before I could send funds to the bank handling the escrow. I will let you know as soon as I hear back. :)
 
ChanceMcCall said:
I think so. I'm not the one who set it up so I will email him tonight. There was an escrow agreement I was required to sign before I could send funds to the bank handling the escrow. I will let you know as soon as I hear back. :)
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Thanks ..... and watch for my next post. I'm in the middle of it when I saw this/your post and wanted to respond asap. Need another few minutes to express my thoughts fully.
 
I'm also concerned we don't end up in a 'straw man' debate. I don't think anyone takes exception to the premise that if/when WLP et al. are found guilty, they should not only be expelled for life, but face serious jail time, and restitution of all 'ill gotten gains'. But if we "cut off our nose to spite our face" by withholding needed funding/revenue, and the organization starves to death, how does that help preserve the real organization?

Like you, I very much want to see the organization preserved. Unfortunately I just don't see how we do that by bankrupting the very organization we're both wanting to preserve. And secondly, but maybe in the current political anti 2nd amendment climate, we should take note that we, (all pro 2nd folks), will need some serious pro 2nd victories in both houses during the mid-terms, and a really strong pro 2nd win in the potus election of 2024.

After this post I'm done with this thread. I'm not looking for a debate, disagreement, nor argument of any sort. Just to provide some legitimate 'food for thought' as well as possibly another perspective.

Here's just a quick jaunt into my line of thinking:

"When public men indulge themselves in abuse, when they deny others a fair trial, when they resort to innuendo and insinuation, to libel, scandal, and suspicion, then our democratic society is outraged, and democracy is baffled."

William Fulbright
 
Bassbob said:
Well we all can have our opinions. Saying they are a ghost of the power they once held is a little inaccurate though. They are still the most powerful 2A lobby in the country. So if they're a ghost, what does that make GOA and the other groups. Meanwhile liberals like Hillary and Bloomberg are happy as pigs in shite that gun owners are doing their work for them. If you think the dissolution of the NRA won't make it 1000 times worse in this country for gun owners you are fixing to type a scathing response to this post from a mental institution.

Understand, I think the whole thing with WLP needs to see the light of day. A bunch of people making accusations is not proof of anything. It needs to all come out and be dealt with above board. If WLP broke any laws or misused NRA resources it needs to be proven and dealt with by the board and the courts. I also support these other gun groups. Financially and in spirit. I do however find it more than a little funny to see people here complain about the NRA contacting them asking for money and at the same time giving the GOA a pass. Those dudes send me 3-4 emails a day. USCCA sends a bunch too. Meanwhile, me, a long time NRA life member in good standing can't recall the last time they contacted me for anything. And I don't recall ever getting an email from them.
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There's not a week go by that I'm not getting NRA stuff in my mailbox asking for money. Most of it I return with a note stating I'd be more than happy to contribute BUT until they clean house and shed light on the the WLP shenanigans I'm not donating or re-upping my subscriptions(I have 2yrs left on the current subscription)
Personally I just feel there's a lot of shenanigans going on between the board members and the upper management executive management I should say and it just doesn't seem like it's legit.
I agree that every CEO needs a nice set of suits to go stand in front of somebody to do their things but it seems like Wayne is taking advantage of the situation and a whole lot of money it's going to him could be going to defend the second amendment.
 
Like you, I very much want to see the organization preserved. Unfortunately I just don't see how we do that by bankrupting the very organization we're both wanting to preserve. And secondly, but maybe in the current political anti 2nd amendment climate, we should take note that we, (all pro 2nd folks), will need some serious pro 2nd victories in both houses during the mid-terms, and a really strong pro 2nd win in the potus election of 2024
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Truth!!
 
Here's where the Second Amendment Foundation (SAF), and Firearms Policy Coalition (FPC) excel, in filing lawsuits against 2A restrictive laws (one example linked below). Where the NRA use to excel in this arena as well, lately they been just adding their name and joining these lawsuits after SAF & FPC spend the initial time and expense of bringing these suits forth. GOA mostly does the same, and joins suits brought by SAF and FPC after the initial suit is entered. These suits are crafted to try to reach the U.S. Supreme court, such as the NY suit that has, and the recent California bans currently being heard by the entire 9th circuit court. FPC also petitions Congress for pro 2A rights (I know, because they ask via email for donations several time a day 🤬, which I have given to, but currently have limited resources to give more).
I'm not trying to poo poo the NRA. They have, for the longest time, done all of the above and more. We still need them in the fight (I'm a Lifetime member, and won't renounce my membership, only stopping future donations). But from what I've read, a lot of donations are being diverted to aid in the legal defense of those named in the proposed criminal activities brought forth by the NY AG. Personally, although not proven guilty, I'd prefer that those accused, stepped aside and allow the NRA to try to recover itself without these legal hassles and expenses. But as one Judge who is a NRA board member mentioned on Gun Talk to Tom Gresham, it's really to late to save the current NRA, especially after the recent ruling by a Texas Judge denying the NRA to name a trustee to oversee their bankruptcy trying to move forward. It's unfortunate, but that's how it appears to be (at least to me, anyways 😕).

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Bassbob said:
Brother I am perfectly willing to do that. Clearly i am not privvy to the inside information you are. I am a voting Life member though. If you wanted to PM me names, etc.. of people I should write these letters to that would be great.
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By Ron Carter Save the Second
January 12, 2020
When we decided to create Save the Second we established five goals that would work to make the NRA’s leadership structure stronger, more effective, relevant and accountable to the members. One of the very first focuses was to establish a Director attendance bylaw amendment, since we had all been educated on the shocking lack of director attendance by Adam Kraut and his work on the matter.

The news concerning Adam’s work was further shocking to us when after suggesting that the directors attend board meetings, NRA Director Marion Hammer called those who agreed with that “The Enemy Within.“

Those of you who signed the petitions and called for accountability in the NRA are obviously not the NRA’s enemy! It seems most directors understand that despite the outlandish accusations levied by Mrs. Hammer. As a result of your hard work we completed one of our five goals yesterday! Today, I am proud to say that the NRA Directors finally have an attendance policy.

I arrived in Tysons Corner, VA (the location of the NRA Winter Board Meeting) on Wednesday night. While the NRA Board Meeting was held on Saturday, the Committee Meetings started on Wednesday and I was eager to speak with our NRA Directors.

On Thursday, Director Todd Rathner spent around two hours total speaking with me about various topics. Director Scott Bach joined in on one such conversation, as they had been working together on our Attendance Bylaw Petition. That was news to me and honestly, I was a skeptic and initially viewed some of their claims as convenient excuses to delay ratification of the petition. They proved my skepticism wrong. During the Board Meeting, the Bylaws & Resolutions Committee Chair, Carol Frampton, brought it before the Board for a vote!

Now, there are a few things that are strange and amended from our original Bylaw Amendment Proposal by Petition of the Members. For example, they chose to make it a Board Policy instead of a bylaw. The reason they chose to do that seems to be a correction from the early 80’s when the bylaws went from 24 pages to 38 and the officer removal became five paragraphs instead of the previous one: not every little thing can be a bylaw, but it can be a policy. Ultimately, it is now the Policy of the Board of Directors that they show up.

You might also be worried that the Policy has no “teeth” to swiftly remove those empty chairs with the excused absences, delegating to the executive council and deferring to the NRA President. Yes, this is a double-edged sword, and a fair one. We would all hate to see this policy abused and weaponized to remove a director who was calling for positive change. Similarly we would hate to see a director removed because he/she was out on the streets of Virginia, or anywhere else, fighting the real fight and couldn’t attend the meeting as a result.

There is a balance there that Scott Bach, Todd Rathner and Carol Frampton spent a shocking amount of time on and I think they got it right, perhaps not by my aggressive standard but by the standards of reasonable, prudent Directors that were in attendance at the Board Meeting. Please note that Marion Hammer failed to attend. Perhaps that is why this policy was voted for with no objection!

There is no doubt about it, this would have never been possible without your involvement. Everyone that sent a letter, email, tweet or message to their NRA Directors: Bravo!

To everyone who signed the Petition and spread the message: This would not have been possible without you!

To those of you who want to see the NRA address the problems, correct the problems and come out truly winning the fight for the protection and expansion of the Second Amendment: Do not stop now! We have four more goals to go!
 

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