Recommendations for 12 Gauge Ammo for Home Defense

[LicensedToPill]

I know there are many factors that contribute to the type of weapon and ammo used for home defense. I currently have a Mossberg 500 ATI Tactical 12 gauge. I have a wife, 2 dogs, and 2 cats. Everyone sleeps in the same room together at night. I still have concern about over-penetration due to my neighbors’ houses being 20-40 yards away on either side of my house. I currently chamber Federal LE Tactical 00 Buck (9 pellets). It is a reduced recoil and Flitecontrol Wad round. What does everyone else use/recommend for their home situations?

 

[Ginge]

I been running the winchester WWII victory ammo. Full brass hulls loaded to 1100fps 9 OO.
The chances of going through a bad guy and exiting your house and then going through the neighbors is slim to none.

 

[TSiWRX]

I know there are many factors that contribute to the type of weapon and ammo used for home defense. I currently have a Mossberg 500 ATI Tactical 12 gauge. I have a wife, 2 dogs, and 2 cats. Everyone sleeps in the same room together at night. I still have concern about over-penetration due to my neighbors’ houses being 20-40 yards away on either side of my house. I currently chamber Federal LE Tactical 00 Buck (9 pellets). It is a reduced recoil and Flitecontrol Wad round. What does everyone else use/recommend for their home situations?

^ This is what I use, too.

And my neighbors are even closer.

We live in what's typically known as an "inner ring" - aka commuter - suburb of a major metro area, so, quite literally, we're just a driveway's distance away from neighbors on either side.

To mitigate the over-penetration concern, I felt that I first had to look at the ACTUAL concern in home-defense: that of stopping the aggressor(s).

Unfortunately, because of the realities of human physiology, this simply means the need for sufficient penetration as a part of the weapon-system's terminal ballistics. There is unfortunately no magic bullet, yet, that will stop the bad actor(s) without also offering substantial penetration in the surroundings/backdrop in the event of a miss. Since stopping the threat(s) is the mission, I feel that, most importantly, the chosen cartridge must do so in an effective and unequivocal manner.

Towards this end, as the shooter, I must be able to accomplish a few things, too:

- I need to have good marksmanship. I absolutely need to know my POA/POI relationship at CQB distances, and be able to effectively employ my home-defense weapons at these distances. I need to be able to meet stringent marksmanship standards, under pressure.

- I need to have good recoil control to effect accurate follow-up shots, with my home-defense weapons. Primary reason: human physiology.

In both of these instances, accuracy is the critical component: I need to hit my target(s). This is not only so that I can achieve my primary goal of stopping the threat(s), but also has direct impact (no pun intended) on the concern of "over penetration" in case of missed shots.

So, towards that latter - the possibility of misses - I've simply designed/designated lanes-of-fire in the my home-defense planning, with the specific goal of mitigating the possibility that a bullet will travel outside of our house should I miss. Either angles which will not allow such escaped projectiles to impact adjacent homes or, even better, to utilize appropriate backstops to prevent the bullet from exiting my home.

With a shotgun using pellet, the biggest thing we need to do as shooter is to pattern that specific cartridge/load, in our specific and unique shotgun. I know at "typical" CQB distances (7, 10, 15, and 25 yards) what my HD 870 will do with that very same load you are using, @LicensedToPill - I know at what point that I'll need to either start really take the backdrop into account (>25 yards) as well as at what distance/target template that I'll need to effect a slug change-over (in the home? no, but in case I had to use the gun outside the home ).

Finally, it's been suggested my various SMEs that even the lot of manufacture can create noticeable differences in patterning, so in the HD context, I try to take this into account, too.

 

[Ginge]

Not enough people train with a weapon they intend to use for hd.

 

[Peglegjoe]

I have the same shotgun, and I do need to train more with it. I also have lanes of fire planned out; it's just me and 2 dogs, in a stone home on four acres - so neighbors are NO worry for me, unless they're the intruder!

Right now I keep it loaded with alternate loads - 00 shot, followed by a slug, followed by 00 shot, followed by a slug. My thought process being, shot will give me a wider net to cast in case a) my aim is poor or b) the target is very actively moving, and hopefully it will slow the intruder enough that I can better target them with a slug.

That's my theory, anyway. But like I said, I do need to practice more with it just for familiarity.

 

[LicensedToPill]

^ This is what I use, too.

And my neighbors are even closer.

We live in what's typically known as an "inner ring" - aka commuter - suburb of a major metro area, so, quite literally, we're just a driveway's distance away from neighbors on either side.

To mitigate the over-penetration concern, I felt that I first had to look at the ACTUAL concern in home-defense: that of stopping the aggressor(s).

Unfortunately, because of the realities of human physiology, this simply means the need for sufficient penetration as a part of the weapon-system's terminal ballistics. There is unfortunately no magic bullet, yet, that will stop the bad actor(s) without also offering substantial penetration in the surroundings/backdrop in the event of a miss. Since stopping the threat(s) is the mission, I feel that, most importantly, the chosen cartridge must do so in an effective and unequivocal manner.

Towards this end, as the shooter, I must be able to accomplish a few things, too:

- I need to have good marksmanship. I absolutely need to know my POA/POI relationship at CQB distances, and be able to effectively employ my home-defense weapons at these distances. I need to be able to meet stringent marksmanship standards, under pressure.

- I need to have good recoil control to effect accurate follow-up shots, with my home-defense weapons. Primary reason: human physiology.

In both of these instances, accuracy is the critical component: I need to hit my target(s). This is not only so that I can achieve my primary goal of stopping the threat(s), but also has direct impact (no pun intended) on the concern of "over penetration" in case of missed shots.

So, towards that latter - the possibility of misses - I've simply designed/designated lanes-of-fire in the my home-defense planning, with the specific goal of mitigating the possibility that a bullet will travel outside of our house should I miss. Either angles which will not allow such escaped projectiles to impact adjacent homes or, even better, to utilize appropriate backstops to prevent the bullet from exiting my home.

With a shotgun using pellet, the biggest thing we need to do as shooter is to pattern that specific cartridge/load, in our specific and unique shotgun. I know at "typical" CQB distances (7, 10, 15, and 25 yards) what my HD 870 will do with that very same load you are using, @LicensedToPill - I know at what point that I'll need to either start really take the backdrop into account (>25 yards) as well as at what distance/target template that I'll need to effect a slug change-over (in the home? no, but in case I had to use the gun outside the home ).

Finally, it's been suggested my various SMEs that even the lot of manufacture can create noticeable differences in patterning, so in the HD context, I try to take this into account, too.

Thank you for your detailed response. Clearly, you have thought a lot about this, and the information you have shared is very helpful! I know my patterns at different yardages; they are very tight until about 20 yards where you start to see a descent spread. All I can do is continue to practice and train to try and mitigate misses.

 

[TSiWRX]

Right now I keep it loaded with alternate loads - 00 shot, followed by a slug, followed by 00 shot, followed by a slug. My thought process being, shot will give me a wider net to cast in case a) my aim is poor or b) the target is very actively moving, and hopefully it will slow the intruder enough that I can better target them with a slug.

^ Be sure you get familiar with your gun's patterning at varying distances.

The problem with the alternating loads is that "you've got what you've got coming up," and while it'll be very easy on a traditional pump-gun to simply cycle out the round you don't want, you may not be able to process that in real-time, during a critical incident.

The other consideration is that if you do cycle out the incoming round, you'll lose that round: shotguns are ammo-hungry beasts in that (outside of magazine/drum fed models and perhaps the KSG side-by-side) they don't hold much capacity (the mantra of "if you're not shooting, you're loading," needs to be practiced and truly ingrained for particularly the defensive shooter)...so if this is going to be your way of doing things, you'll definitely want to consider some way of carrying extra ammo with you, be it a side-saddle, stock sock, or even a bandolier sling.

See if you can't instead reconcile your distance metric with a slug changeover:

^ This was taken from the Magpul "Art of the Dynamic Shotgun" DVD series, and is a reasonable representation of what a shooter would do to effect the change-over on an 870 or similar pump-action (every shotgun will differ in how this technique is executed: this is one of the reasons why the shotgun is actually a rather complicated weapon system to operate, under-stress).

And towards a real-world example:

But No One Ever Uses 'Select Slug' Drills In Real Life... Right?

I managed to miss checking John Farnam's quips and quotes for a few weeks, or I would have seen this earlier. There are those who avoid the ammunition choice decision completely and just use slugs in their fighting shotguns all the time. There is in fact something to be said for that. For...

www.thehighroad.org

Finally, Peglegjoe, if you haven't already, you'll want to be sure to get out to the range to pattern your gun. Contrary to popular belief, it is actually quite easy to miss - completely - with the shotgun at typical home-defense distances of 7 to 25 yards, depending on everything from the spread of the pellets to shooter aiming issues such as eye dominance (both eyes open, for example, with my cross-dominance, I can literally miss a full size human target completely high-left at 25 yards: with BIRDSHOT!!!!! ).

Thank you for your detailed response.

Not at all! Thank you, in-turn, for a great set of questions!

All I can do is continue to practice and train to try and mitigate misses.

I really think that's all that any of us can do, really.

And for me, personally, I know that I need to put in more work with the gauge.

It is a wonderfully devastating weapon, but it's definitely not as simple to run as the AR or a handgun!

 

[10mmLife]

Winchester PDX-1 Defender is designed exactly for home defense. Lower powered to limit over penetration with a 1oz slug followed by 3 00 buck pellets all in one shell. You can find some decent reviews on this shell on YouTube.

 

[Talyn]

First shot is a non-lethal round, then I prefer #4 buck to cut down on over-penetration.

 

[Bassbob]

00B I have no neighbors close enough to worry about.

 

[LicensedToPill]

First shot is a non-lethal round, then I prefer #4 buck to cut down on over-penetration.

Why do you prefer a non-lethal round first? Typically, if the intruder wants to provoke violence, especially if they see you have a firearm, their goal is not to shoot/harm you to wound, it will be to kill. My goal is to stop the threat, and if that involves them expiring, that is unfortunately the consequence. The best chance I have of stopping someone trying to kill me, is with a lethal round. I would never want to be in the situation where I shoot a non-lethal round at an intruder, then they realize I’m a threat, manage to shoot me...when I could have solved the problem initially with buckshot...or what have you.

 

[Talyn]

Why do you prefer a non-lethal round first? Typically, if the intruder wants to provoke violence, especially if they see you have a firearm, their goal is not to shoot/harm you to wound, it will be to kill. My goal is to stop the threat, and if that involves them expiring, that is unfortunately the consequence. The best chance I have of stopping someone trying to kill me, is with a lethal round. I would never want to be in the situation where I shoot a non-lethal round at an intruder, then they realize I’m a threat, manage to shoot me...when I could have solved the problem initially with buckshot...or what have you.

"If" I'm using a shotgun (which I likely won't be) in a first contact situation, the first non-lethal shot is an indicator I tried to diffuse the incident to the inevitable police investigation.

However, my second shot will rapidly follow-up the first to stop the threat as we all want to. That's with a shotgun, but I prefer a handgun so that scenario likely won't happen.

If the incident is on-going I won't be loading a shotgun with a first non-lethal.

My .02

 

[Talyn]

With the rise of the PCC my use of a shotgun for defense has slipped to 4th place.

 

[TSiWRX]

^ So, this brings up an interesting point of discussion.......

I remain unconvinced of PCCs as defensive (or even offensive) weapons.

The question I have is why bother with a pistol cartridge, when you're already at the footprint of a shoulder-fired weapon, anyway? Does the PCC offer increase lethality over the 5.56/.223 or .300-Blk?

What's the difference between a PCC and a sub-gun? Didn't the sub-gun go the way of the dodo?

 

[Talyn]

^ So, this brings up an interesting point of discussion.......

I remain unconvinced of PCCs as defensive (or even offensive) weapons.

The question I have is why bother with a pistol cartridge, when you're already at the footprint of a shoulder-fired weapon, anyway? Does the PCC offer increase lethality over the 5.56/.223 or .300-Blk?

What's the difference between a PCC and a sub-gun? Didn't the sub-gun go the way of the dodo?

So a 9mm, 45 or 10mm is OK in a handgun but not in a PCC? If so, why bother with a handgun.

Does the PCC offer increase lethality over the 5.56/.223 or .300-Blk? No, but within it's capabilities a PCC makes things dead just like the 5.56/.223 or .300-Blk.

The difference is obvious. Semi-auto or the fun switch. No subguns aren't dodos.

Subguns are still in use by mainly foreign LE & mil. Matter of fact, the US mil has plans on using a new design for some applications.

 

[TSiWRX]

So a 9mm, 45 or 10mm is OK in a handgun but not in a PCC? If so, why bother with a handgun.

Does the PCC offer increase lethality over the 5.56/.223 or .300-Blk? No, but within it's capabilities a PCC makes things dead just like the 5.56/.223 or .300-Blk.

The question is what the PCC offers that a handgun cannot -or- a SBR cannot: what does that 9mm/.45 ACP/10mm offer me in the packaging of the PCC that makes it better than what either the same-caliber handgun *or* a 5.56/.233 SBR can offer me?

Let's use home-defense as the basis of this discussion.....

Some folks don't like to use long-guns. In this context, what does the PCC bring to the table that a handgun does not?

And for those who do favor long-guns, what does the PCC offer over a 5.56/.223 SBR, "pistol" or even bullpup, given the same footprint?

The difference is obvious. Semi-auto or the fun switch. No subguns aren't dodos.

Subguns are still in use by mainly foreign LE & mil. Matter of fact, the US mil has plans on using a new design for some applications.

Subs are very role-limited though, aren't they? Isn't the B&T's contract specifically for PSD?

You're absolutely right - there's a big difference in terms of select-fire capability. So let's just say that the fun-switch was available to us average-Joes/Janes: again, what can the PCC/Sub do a SBR cannot do better?

Thinking on this, I'll concede noise mitigation (which, in all honesty, would definitely be a huge benefit in terms of civilian home-defense or vehicle-defense), but terminal ballistics and intermediate barriers?

 

[Talyn]

The terminal ballistics of a pistol round out of a PCC barrel is higher than out of a pistol barrel.

Considering how 99% of stick-built houses are nowadays there's there's not much difference in what happens with intermediate barriers.

In CQB conditions there's not much diff in effectiveness between a PCC and a 5.56 SBR IMO. Past 50 yds yes.

My .02

 

[Talyn]

BUT I have this in .45 & 10mm with a MRD as the primary sight. Same barrel length but very manuverable in CQB and more accurate than I can with the G20/21 in conventional use. With high cap 27 rd. Kriss mags I prefer this until I would have to go outdoors, then it's AR time beyond 50 yds. Plenty of terminal ballistic with either. Would take this in either 45 or 10mm (especially the 10) over a shotgun anytime.

I also have a 9mm PCC of a different design that I would also be comfortable with within 50 yds.

But I have no problem with someone with a shotgun watching my "6" in a CQB situation.

 

[Bassbob]

My choice of weapon would be different between a home defense gun and a CQB gun. Clearing a house or finding your way out of a house full of BGs safely is in all reality entirely different than home defense. Usually. If you have a team of ninjas attacking your house you're into more crap than I am. That's not to say I think that Glock rifle up there isn't a solid HD weapon, because it is. And if I had one I would definitely train with it and use it as an option.

 

[Talyn]

My choice of weapon would be different between a home defense gun and a CQB gun. Clearing a house or finding your way out of a house full of BGs safely is in all reality entirely different than home defense. Usually. If you have a team of ninjas attacking your house you're into more crap than I am. That's not to say I think that Glock rifle up there isn't a solid HD weapon, because it is. And if I had one I would definitely train with it and use it as an option.

I guess I don't see a difference between a home defense gun and CQB gun. Home defense is inherently CQB, but could be larger based on the footprint one wants/has to defend. If "home defense" means your house and property (depending on how much you have) then you could then throw a full blown AR or other rifle into the mix.

And, there's no guarantee that you'll only have one intruder into your home to defend against.

I don't see any difference between clearing a house with a shotgun, a handgun or the PCC Glock above. All do the job. It's a difference between which tool one is more comfortable and proficient with, and based on personal preference.

The PCC Glock pictured above is not a rifle but a pistol in a chassis that improves its usability for some. It's really no different (application wise) than an AR pistol (other than the cartridge and its capabilities) that is popular now.

I like the configuration because I have increased the usability of Glocks that I really didn't use anymore because I moved on to XDs/XDms. Plus, I am much more accurate with the PCC Glock than I am with the individual guns outside the chassis. I think that is a benefit for home defense. No ninjas involved.

If folks want to use a shotgun that's fine. Every firearm has it's pluses & minuses.

As you say we make our own individual choices. Nothing wrong with that.

My .02

BTW - CAA makes those chassis to accommodate XDs now.