Keystone19250
SAINT
Something I never thought about good to know thanks.
Red-Dot Sights: Points to Ponder
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TEXASforLIFE
SAINT
This works from 22-50 cal + 20-12 ga. You can download software for zeroing best distance based on caliber and velocity + other inputs.
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
Here's just a little tid-bit for thought ................. the red dot, once sighted in properly, is 'ON' basically anywhere it can be seen on target through the glass. If one takes the time to align the irons the red dot should be seen resting directly on top of the front sight. The real key to using a RDS is to focus on the target rather than the dot. If/when you see the dot on the target, regardless of where it appears on the glass, you're ready to fire.
The red dot does not have to be 'aligned' with any other sight or sighting implement to work. In other words there is no 'sight alignment' as such. And most RDS's are designed to be virtually parallax free at reasonable engagement distances to infinity. However, due to that fact they are typically more affected by some amount of parallax at closer distances.
And as far as I can tell, all RDS's are affected by some amount of parallax ............ some far less than others, but all are effected.
The red dot does not have to be 'aligned' with any other sight or sighting implement to work. In other words there is no 'sight alignment' as such. And most RDS's are designed to be virtually parallax free at reasonable engagement distances to infinity. However, due to that fact they are typically more affected by some amount of parallax at closer distances.
And as far as I can tell, all RDS's are affected by some amount of parallax ............ some far less than others, but all are effected.
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
Oh yeh, I couldn't agree more with Bear007 about marking the headstamp of a chamber laser so that it can be clocked reasonably accurately at 90 degrees while observing the dot location on target. I've found most chamber lasers to be pretty close to centered, most close enough to be fairly accurate, but occasionally you will find one that's off enough to cause trouble if using just the one sighting position.
When you rotate it through the four positions, if you can see it at four distinct spots on the target without any movement of the gun, then you need to clock it through all four positions and find the center of the four. That will be really close to the actual center of your bore. But always remember to factor in any trajectory differences based on your target distance.
That's one reason my personal preference is a target distance of 10yds with a 9mm 124gr projectile and MV of approximately 1150fps +/-. When I'm dead on at 10yds, I'm also dead on (or very, very close) at 50yds with t sight height of .75". And nowhere in between does the projectile go above or below my line of sight more than about 3/4". I figure I'm not ever likely to be involved in any gun fight at more than 50yds since I've just not been able to master shooting over my shoulder at a dead run .... if you know what I mean?
When you rotate it through the four positions, if you can see it at four distinct spots on the target without any movement of the gun, then you need to clock it through all four positions and find the center of the four. That will be really close to the actual center of your bore. But always remember to factor in any trajectory differences based on your target distance.
That's one reason my personal preference is a target distance of 10yds with a 9mm 124gr projectile and MV of approximately 1150fps +/-. When I'm dead on at 10yds, I'm also dead on (or very, very close) at 50yds with t sight height of .75". And nowhere in between does the projectile go above or below my line of sight more than about 3/4". I figure I'm not ever likely to be involved in any gun fight at more than 50yds since I've just not been able to master shooting over my shoulder at a dead run .... if you know what I mean?
Bassbob
Emissary
Yes. They get you on paper.
SimonRL
Hellcat
The only time I use my irons on any of my guns with RDS is as reference when I bring my gun up. For each pistol I know where my dot pops up relative to my front sight and I can make minor adjustments without a lot of wrist flicking. What catches a lot of red dot newbies out is bringing the gun up and not seeing a front sight or dot.
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
Agree whole heartedly with this. I was careful not to suggest one should try to use the irons in conjunction with the RDS, only that if/when they did line up the irons, they should also see the dot resting at or near the top of the front sight ..... assuming the irons are also adjusted correctly.
And actually I hadn't really thought it through, but I don't think I even consider the irons anymore when practicing SD shots. I look through the glass for the target and when I see it I usually also see the dot on that target. In all honesty I guess I'm more often than not almost 'point' shooting rather than aiming.
Bassbob
Emissary
Why wouldn't you just practice your draw so you bring the gun up with the dot where it should be to begin with ? Using the front sight as a guide on my Walther, the dot would not be visible in the glass. When I present that gun I do it so the dot is visible near the center of the glass.
Bassbob
Emissary
Your BUIS and your dot need to be zero'ed independently. Just laying your dot on top of your front sight is NOT zero'ing your dot.
Bassbob
Emissary
Three Common Myths About Aimpoint Sights
telluric.us
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
Well, it probably is assuming both the irons and the RDS are sighted for the same range. Both my dot and my irons are sighted for dead on at 10yds. That puts my dot right on the tip of my front iron.
I'm pretty sure that's how it is ...... but maybe not!
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
Notice though I never said I must align my dot and the front sight. During an actual shot, I never even consider the front sight or where the dot is in relation to it. Only that since both are sighted for the exact same distance, they will line up together when the irons are aligned.
Only that since both are sighted for the exact same distance, they will line up together when the irons are aligned.
Bear007
Custom
JJ, how fast can you run lol? Sight in distance looks good for your low sights. I did a little figuring for my PC Carbine sighting in distance too. With the StrikeFire II sight height at 2.5" I choose 20 yds sight in distance.Oh yeh, I couldn't agree more with Bear007 about marking the headstamp of a chamber laser so that it can be clocked reasonably accurately at 90 degrees while observing the dot location on target. I've found most chamber lasers to be pretty close to centered, most close enough to be fairly accurate, but occasionally you will find one that's off enough to cause trouble if using just the one sighting position.
When you rotate it through the four positions, if you can see it at four distinct spots on the target without any movement of the gun, then you need to clock it through all four positions and find the center of the four. That will be really close to the actual center of your bore. But always remember to factor in any trajectory differences based on your target distance.
That's one reason my personal preference is a target distance of 10yds with a 9mm 124gr projectile and MV of approximately 1150fps +/-. When I'm dead on at 10yds, I'm also dead on (or very, very close) at 50yds with t sight height of .75". And nowhere in between does the projectile go above or below my line of sight more than about 3/4". I figure I'm not ever likely to be involved in any gun fight at more than 50yds since I've just not been able to master shooting over my shoulder at a dead run .... if you know what I mean?
It starts at
-2.5" @ 0yds,
0" @ 20yds,
+1.5" @ 50yds, (peak)
0" @ 80yds ... and back to
-2.5" @ 100yds.
It all made me think about what a good sight in distance would be for the new Hellion. The sight height is probably gonna end up being 5 - 6 inches high on it.
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
I don't have a calculator real close to look, but yours sounds reasonable. Most or some seem to forget about the 'sight height' when calculating ballistics, but they are as important as any other component. Give me your bullet weight, approx muzzle velocity, and I'll be happy to compare what you got with mine. And while I'm up getting my calculator, I might even find myself a nice warm Jack/neat to help keep me warm tonight.JJ, how fast can you run lol? Sight in distance looks good for your low sights. I did a little figuring for my PC Carbine sighting in distance too. With the StrikeFire II sight height at 2.5" I choose 20 yds sight in distance.
It starts at
-2.5" @ 0yds,
0" @ 20yds,
+1.5" @ 50yds, (peak)
0" @ 80yds ... and back to
-2.5" @ 100yds.
It all made me think about what a good sight in distance would be for the new Hellion. The sight height is probably gonna end up being 5 - 6 inches high on it.
The wife is an almost tee-toteler and has the coldest feet on earth. !!!
Bear007
Custom
Enjoy your Jack!I don't have a calculator real close to look, but yours sounds reasonable. Most or some seem to forget about the 'sight height' when calculating ballistics, but they are as important as any other component. Give me your bullet weight, approx muzzle velocity, and I'll be happy to compare what you got with mine. And while I'm up getting my calculator, I might even find myself a nice warm Jack/neat to help keep me warm tonight.
I just used online calculator
SimonRL
Hellcat
I do and when I’m at the range that works perfectly, but in a defensive situation and you’re on the move you don’t always bring your pistol up in textbook fashion. Once you’ve acquired the dot it’s easy to hold it as you move, but initially things don’t always go as practiced.
KillerFord1977
SAINT
Master the Irons.
Then move on to glass
If you have not mastered the irons, then glass is a crutch.
Technology is not the solution. Only an addition
Then move on to glass
If you have not mastered the irons, then glass is a crutch.
Technology is not the solution. Only an addition
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Bassbob
Emissary
Hence the reason for practicing the proper draw and presentation so that it becomes muscle memory. If you are on the ground and shooting sideways with one hand does looking for your front sight put the dot where you can see it? The dot is only on your front sight post when you have your front and rear irons properly aligned. See what I'm saying?
^ This used to be my thinking -and it was also the way I taught my daughter- but several top-tier trainers have now demonstrated that it's possible to use the dot to "back-teach" proper sight-alignment/sight-picture, too.
Similarly, more recently, various top-tier shooters (we're talking Grand Master-level, here) have cited that they'd rather have a "dot" as a backup sight versus irons due to speed alone.
As a result, I've started thinking that neither is really a crutch for the other: but rather, that good fundamentals can be established by using either, and that as a "complete" shooter, one should master both - the order of which doesn't really matter.
But that's just my personal take, just my two-cents that, on the order of things, really isn't worth a lot!
---
RE: the RDS -
RE: (1) "dot in window, OK to shoot" / "parallax free" -
I did a deep-dive into this back in the latter half of December - https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/optics-on-ar.10157/page-2#post-134309
The Green Eye Tactical white-paper is worth reading for those who are really interested, but even just viewing the linked YouTube video from them will demonstrate the fallacy of thinking that even "top tier" modern RDS are "parallax free."
To an extent, they are. "Dot in window/on-target = shoot" does work, mostly. However, if you're zeroing or taking a truly critical shot, you absolutely MUST take enough time/effort to properly center the dot and your eye along the barrel axis -as you would any other aiming device- as that is the only way to insure that the POA/POI relationship is correct (within context of the sights, that is).
Also cited there is Doc Spears' video on the Surefire YouTube Channel, which points out the same in a more condensed and digestible format.
The idea behind the dot is that it's -FAST-. With both-eyes-open, target-focused shooting, the sheer speed at which we can use the unmagnified dot on high-percentage targets is simply undeniable and absolutely quantifiable.
However, this is absolutely in-relation to the difficulty of the target metric. When the distance starts to stretch and/or the target gets smaller, more effort to properly align/center the dot should be made.
RE: (2) using irons to zero the dot (or vice versa) -
As @Bassbob noted, this absolutely needs to be done separately. If your irons and dot end up right on top of each other, that's just a bonus. In-reality, realize that because of the way we see (visually) -particularly with the handgun context- and how we cheek long-guns that these two zeros may not actually match precisely, and can actually vary grossly.
Mark Smith of JBS Training Group notes that some 90% (no, not a typo) of students that come through his rather demanding courses actually show up with the BUIS
RE: (3) handgun RDS zero -
For handgun, just like the irons, the typical RDS zero is also 25 yards.
An Official Journal Of The NRA | Best Distance to Zero a Pistol-Mounted Red Dot
With the explosion in popularity of pistol-mounted red-dot sights, deciding what distance at which to zero has become a pressing issue.
In addition to the simple geometry, one should realize that a "zero" at closer distances brings with it the possibility of "false goodness" in that even the slightest deviation from perfection will "blow-out" to something bigger, further downrange. For example, in order to shoot to a ~3-inch group at 25 yards, you'll need to have an all-rounds-touching group of approx. 3/4" at the 7 yard line.
---
RE: the laser boresighter -
^ As @Bear007 noted, a more rigorous practice of bore-sighting can bring out better results, and the military practices that I cited in that post is a mirror of the rather simplified -but very practical- method that he uses, which actually is what I do, too.
The problem with the bore-adapter ones like the one that @TEXASforLIFE pictured above - which is also similar to what I use - is that a lot depends on just how well the adapter fits to the device as well as how the device sits in the muzzle. The methodology that @Bear007 utilizes allows us to somewhat take these errors and aberrations into account, making for a more acceptable final "zero."
I will absolutely admit to the fact that I only laser-boresight in a rather lazy manner
, but I typically only use it to insure that I'm "on paper" before I go out to the range.