Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled "Remington Ultimate Defense 9mm vs. a Prius — Which Won?" and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/remington-ultimate-defense-9mm-vs-a-prius-which-won/.
Remington Ultimate Defense 9mm vs. a Prius — Which Won?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Well another reason I carried a .45 ACP as a Law Enforcement when they said I couldn't use a .357 mag any more. All said, I have seen several gunfights with 9mm with few rounds penetrating the autos being used for cover. One with over 50 rounds exchanged between combatants... I do carry a 9mm as a concealed and this round looks up to the that task and wouldn't hesitate to use. I do realize the .45 ACP may too fail to penetrate and the debate over mass and velocity is overrated on both sides with pistols. But if given a choice between a baseball bat over a baton, well... As a sidebar, I hate the Prius mindset, but appears it again, held its own.
TEXASforLIFE
SAINT
FMJ beats doors and glass with all calibers/cartridges! Every leo should carry 1 mag of FMJ. Most cartridges will make it threw both doors. Can't hide on the other side of the car against them.
Great plan, but sometimes you have to deal with "issued" ammo on duty... But, I do that with personal home defense to include a mag of green tip and maybe a tracer or two for the AR and FMJ in 45 ACP for the pistol for such occasions.
HansGruber
Ronin
That’s…not quite accurate.
There’s several JHP’s that work just as well as FMJ against most common barriers—HST, CritDuty are a couple of examples—so switching isn’t that important anymore.
HansGruber
Ronin
I don't get the point of the article.....
It's well-known that whether or not typical defensive/duty calibers will pass through the vehicle body itself is dependent on what lays beneath the sheet-metal or composite outer body-work. Prius or otherwise, unless the vehicle carries ballistic armor, this is just how it is. The test could have just as well been done with a Suburban is it could a Ferrari.
A non-ballistically armored vehicle is just like anything else - there's some parts of it that's cover, and others that's no more reliable than anything but concealment.
Maybe for the next test they could try shooting through various politically inflammatory bumper stickers?
It's well-known that whether or not typical defensive/duty calibers will pass through the vehicle body itself is dependent on what lays beneath the sheet-metal or composite outer body-work. Prius or otherwise, unless the vehicle carries ballistic armor, this is just how it is. The test could have just as well been done with a Suburban is it could a Ferrari.
A non-ballistically armored vehicle is just like anything else - there's some parts of it that's cover, and others that's no more reliable than anything but concealment.
Maybe for the next test they could try shooting through various politically inflammatory bumper stickers?
Jfal
Professional
I hate to keep bringing him up, but Paul Harrell did several videos on shooting through cars (and windshields) on youtube. Of course none of his test vehicles were hybrids (those batteries might be life-savers). He addressed which parts (of cars) are best for taking cover behind, and which not so much...
HansGruber
Ronin
You know, Paul Harrel’s stuff is seriously overrated.
His “Meat Sack” target is ludicrous, imho. You can’t repeat it from test to test, making any data irrelevant.
His “Meat Sack” target is ludicrous, imho. You can’t repeat it from test to test, making any data irrelevant.
Jfal
Professional
Well Hans, You might be right, but my rib cage compared to yours would be the exact same comparison...every one is different. Is there a better way to test ammo on a simulated body cavity? And relatively few others do as many ammo comparisons on youtube (as Harrell). I think they frown at that over there at big tech these days...and ballistics gel? Something tells me a rib bone and a hollow lung might not have the same physical properties as gel...so it's about recreating an accurate-as-possible substitute. Are there others of whom I am unaware that have a better substitute? Harrell's "meat target" seems as good a substitute representation as any I have seen...but I have not seen everything, admittedly. I would welcome suggestions.
Regardless of all that about meat, Harrell DID do several videos on shooting through cars (and taking cover behind cars), that all seemed logical to me...
And if nothing else, Harrell does chronographs of all ammo he tests...that is worthwhile in and of itself. And he shows expansion of JHP rounds through liquid targets as well as the doubted meat targets. While a liquid target is not representative of a body cavity, it does show expansion of JHP's quite well (ammo-to-ammo).
Ranger715
Elite
I'll defend good old Paul. He'd be the first to acknowledge he's not doing scientific experiments. He doesn't pretend he's collecting repeatable data by shooting the meat target. He's just putting together a reasonable analog of a torso and using it to get an impression of bullet performance. It's nothing definitive, and isn't meant to be. It's fun, interesting youtube content.
Old_Me
SAINT
to wit, yes, there IS a better way to test ammo on a body cavity, a real human body.
and that would be to take death row inmates..........
of course, i might just be "jesting"....or am i....????
HansGruber
Ronin
RCMP, iirc, did a test a while back using ballistic gel; then they added ribs to some of the tests….
The end results? Nearly identical between the tests with ribs vs those with straight balgel. Statistically insignificant.
But they didn’t produce a video, so…I guess it doesn’t matter.
HansGruber
Ronin
Might have been referenced in Duncan MacPherson’s book…
pullmyfinger
Operator
I think the point is a relative idea of performance rather than accuracy.
Annihilator
Emissary
I can hear it now all the green new deal people will be crying cause you shot up a Prius…..lol
HansGruber
Ronin
The performance isn’t replicatible, at all.
Core
Operator
Enjoyable video, well done. We need a MK318 type cartridge for 9mm and 45 Auto. Im sure some offerings approach this level of performance but it sheds light to the need for more cartridge development. My JH science fair entry was terminal ballistic performance in the early 1990's. I calculated volumetric loss of hunting cartridges in a hard foam medium. I found the benefit of magnum cartridges in tissue destruction on a pork shoulder. I was sighting in my Father's 30-30 at a local pit range and at 75 yards the projectile would not penetrate a 3/4" pine board. I realized I had no idea what cartridges I was carrying in the Maine woods could or couldn't do. If I was charged by any number of large game animals or predators, I wanted to be confident my cartridges were not lethargic. I learned a great deal from actually harvesting game animals. I ended up carrying a Winchester 97 in 44 Mag which produced good results for Maine's thick vegetated landscape. I was able to test .22, .32, .35, 7mm, 8mm, 30-30, 30-06, and 12 Gauge. I knew my principle well..so I can only imagine his opinion of my project, bit everyone was very supportive. With today's antigun admins in education I couldn't say how they would view this type of a project. I also kept a Winchester 1200 on my gun rack in the highschool open campus years, but I do remember a spike in gun rack theft in the mid/late 1990s and I had an officer recommend I not store it in plain sight. Looking back over my life, it's 100% clear that gun crime is a cultural issue due to lack of family values. In todays age most kids are so well behaved (I have two daughters) the only threat to a gun rack is minimal in my rural area. We need to address poverty and inner city crime culture if we want to pretend to be "enlightened."