Review: Springfield Armory Desert FDE XD-M Elite 4.5" OSP 10mm

[Firewagon]

Wrong.

10mm in full-power is .357 level.

.41 Mag smokes 10mm unless you wimp out and compare the hottest 10mm loads to lightweight .41 loads.

Apples to apples comparison: similar bullet weights & type, by the same manufacturer.

Underwood 10mm 200gr—1200fps
Underwood .41 210gr—1560fps

Underwood .357Mag 180gr—-1400fps
Underwood 10mm 180gr—1400fps

Only slightly "wrong." Your final panel comparing the .357 180 to the 10mm 180 tells you the LARGER bullet might be a tad more efficient as a fight stopper, kinda like the 1911 .45 aficionados love to say about that .45 caliber being a "man killing fight stopper," because of the initial hole it makes without needing expansion. Your Underwood 180 is a lead bullet out of a 6" barrel w/784 FPE (ft lb of energy). By comparison, my 6" BarSto 10mm Glock barrel gives me 810+ fpe w/180 SGDHP. If you drop down to a 4" barrel you would lose about 200 fps followed by a lower energy number. Additionally, the .357, unlike the 10mm, is not normally loaded with a 180 grain bullet, it normally tops out at 158 grains, and lighter numbers usually show more speed and energy.

Concentrating on the 4" barrel length, more common with CC pistols, with more common bullet weights, the 10mm still ranks above the .357 and is comparable to the 41 Mag! Additionally, it is as controllable as the .357 and more so than the .41 Mag.

 

[HansGruber]

Not that I really want to be part of this conversation, nor do I know a lot about Underwood Ammunition, but your point has a couple holes in it. First that a comparison of only one ammunition manufacturer doesn't prove much, only that is how their ammunition is loaded, regardless how all other manufacturers load their ammunition.

And second that you're claiming to use an apples to apples approach is like comparing a Red Delicious to a McIntosh and to a Gala. The size and shape of the bullet plays a considerable role beyond the muzzle. In the context of the thread about big game hunting the relevance of ballistic performance is at the target impact. So, it really depends on how far the target is and that would be the comparison that could be questioned.

I believe someone mentioned that (generally) 10mm rounds are not loaded to the full potential of the cartridge. If that is true then how can there be a fair comparison at all. I have heard that the .41 is a hot round, and so that being a magnum, whereas the 10mm is not, like a +P or +P+ round could be. If there were such an animal as a 10mm +P then I think the comparison would be fairer between the other two magnum rounds.

Underwood is one of (arguably) three manufacturers that load cartridges to the very top end of their potential…so, yes, it is very much an equal comparison.

Additionally, there is no SAAMI designation as +P/+P+ 10mm. Any cartridge so marketed is one of two things—dangerously overpressure, or pure marketing hype. Either way, I would not shoot it.

1200fps is the very top end for a 200gr 10mm; do a little research, and you’ll find that. 1500+fps for a 210gr .41 Magnum is not uncommon (case volume reigns supreme, here).

See my next post why, when it come to dangerous game, a 180gr .357 would beat a 180gr 10mm (hint: it’s all about sectional density).

 

[HansGruber]

Only slightly "wrong." Your final panel comparing the .357 180 to the 10mm 180 tells you the LARGER bullet might be a tad more efficient as a fight stopper, kinda like the 1911 .45 aficionados love to say about that .45 caliber being a "man killing fight stopper," because of the initial hole it makes without needing expansion. Your Underwood 180 is a lead bullet out of a 6" barrel w/784 FPE (ft lb of energy). By comparison, my 6" BarSto 10mm Glock barrel gives me 810+ fpe w/180 SGDHP. If you drop down to a 4" barrel you would lose about 200 fps followed by a lower energy number. Additionally, the .357, unlike the 10mm, is not normally loaded with a 180 grain bullet, it normally tops out at 158 grains, and lighter numbers usually show more speed and energy.

Concentrating on the 4" barrel length, more common with CC pistols, with more common bullet weights, the 10mm still ranks above the .357 and is comparable to the 41 Mag! Additionally, it is as controllable as the .357 and more so than the .41 Mag.

Actually, if you’re looking at a 180gr .357 mag bullet, you’re looking at dangerous game; and when it comes to dangerous game, penetration is the key…therefore, the .357 mag at the same velocity as the 10mm wins, due to better sectional density (smaller bullet with the same energy pushing it will have less resistance and penetrate further).

Additionally, in order to make your 10mm look better, you need to start cherry picking; let’s run it against my 8” 657 and see how your 6” barrel falls short.

At the end of the day, no matter how much the 10mm fanboys yammer and cry, the .41 magnum wins.

 

[Gamecock]

Any recommendations on an OWB holster for field carry for the 10mm 4.5”? I don’t see many manufacturers that have it as an option.

 

[Firewagon]

Actually, if you’re looking at a 180gr .357 mag bullet, you’re looking at dangerous game; and when it comes to dangerous game, penetration is the key…therefore, the .357 mag at the same velocity as the 10mm wins, due to better sectional density (smaller bullet with the same energy pushing it will have less resistance and penetrate further).

Additionally, in order to make your 10mm look better, you need to start cherry picking; let’s run it against my 8” 657 and see how your 6” barrel falls short.

At the end of the day, no matter how much the 10mm fanboys yammer and cry, the .41 magnum wins.

Never did say the 10mm was EQUAL to the 41 Mag. Only that it is closer to that number than the .357 Mag. Did you bother to read those charts? BTW, no 'handgun' is recommended for "dangerous game," and anyone thinking to attempt such with even some .500 S&W better have some backup in the form of a guide armed with a double rifle in .577 Nitro Express!

 

[Junior2K20]

Actually, if you’re looking at a 180gr .357 mag bullet, you’re looking at dangerous game; and when it comes to dangerous game, penetration is the key…therefore, the .357 mag at the same velocity as the 10mm wins, due to better sectional density (smaller bullet with the same energy pushing it will have less resistance and penetrate further).

Additionally, in order to make your 10mm look better, you need to start cherry picking; let’s run it against my 8” 657 and see how your 6” barrel falls short.

At the end of the day, no matter how much the 10mm fanboys yammer and cry, the .41 magnum wins.

I'm not arguing against your .41 magnum fanboy claims, it is a powerful round. I'm just pointing out that your observations are skewed, you're still comparing two magnum cartridges to a standard cartridge. And arguably it's not about sectional density, it's more about the transfer of energy at target range.

 

[HansGruber]

I'm not arguing against your .41 magnum fanboy claims, it is a powerful round. I'm just pointing out that your observations are skewed, you're still comparing two magnum cartridges to a standard cartridge. And arguably it's not about sectional density, it's more about the transfer of energy at target range.

“Energy transfer” is a myth.

Penetration kills.

 

[HansGruber]

Never did say the 10mm was EQUAL to the 41 Mag. Only that it is closer to that number than the .357 Mag. Did you bother to read those charts? BTW, no 'handgun' is recommended for "dangerous game," and anyone thinking to attempt such with even some .500 S&W better have some backup in the form of a guide armed with a double rifle in .577 Nitro Express!

.500 S&W hits as hard (in a 440gr hard cast), and punches deeper than a 1oz 12ga slug.

Speaking as the owner of a .500 (since 2004)…I’d take it against anything that walks on land—including a Dagga Boy.

 

[Sld1959]

.500 S&W hits as hard (in a 440gr hard cast), and punches deeper than a 1oz 12ga slug.

Speaking as the owner of a .500 (since 2004)…I’d take it against anything that walks on land—including a Dagga Boy.

Having known Larry Kelly the originator of Mag-na-port int. And avid big game handgun hunter I feel comfortable saying that if he had the .500 available during his hunting youth he would have used it on big dangerous game world wide. He even mentioned it one time.m when we were talking about new handguns he was working on when I dropped off one of mine. Having shot one, It is quite simply one of the most amazingly powerful things I have ever shot.

 

[Firewagon]

LOL! Better make that first shot count, 'cause that followup shot ain't-a-gunna-be-fun! Also, rather than wanna pack around a near 5 pound handgun, I think I'd stick with a rifle. Unless you are built like Arnold, rapid followup shots would eat your meat-hook thumb up on that cylinder eject button. As noted, have that dude with the double-rifle as a backup, if you wanna take on "dangerous game" with ANY handgun.

 

[HansGruber]

LOL! Better make that first shot count, 'cause that followup shot ain't-a-gunna-be-fun! Also, rather than wanna pack around a near 5 pound handgun, I think I'd stick with a rifle. Unless you are built like Arnold, rapid followup shots would eat your meat-hook thumb up on that cylinder eject button. As noted, have that dude with the double-rifle as a backup, if you wanna take on "dangerous game" with ANY handgun.

Look.

Just because you aren’t capable of doing something, doesn’t mean that everyone isn’t.

Given, RA is making me get rid of my heavy magnums; but, back in the day? I would have no problems knocking 5 bowling pins down at 25 yards with a full-honk .500 in under 8 seconds.

I daresay, I doubt you could do that with a 10mm, no matter how much you sprayed & prayed.

 

[Gamecock]

LOL! Better make that first shot count, 'cause that followup shot ain't-a-gunna-be-fun! Also, rather than wanna pack around a near 5 pound handgun, I think I'd stick with a rifle. Unless you are built like Arnold, rapid followup shots would eat your meat-hook thumb up on that cylinder eject button. As noted, have that dude with the double-rifle as a backup, if you wanna take on "dangerous game" with ANY handgun.

Statistically, almost all handgun calibers are effective in ending bear attacks, including 9mm and .38. “Taking” dangerous game is a different story, but handguns are extremely effective in ending attacks, and almost all calibers perform. 10mm is perfectly fine for that, that’s why the guides in Alaska have almost all turned to it.

 

[Junior2K20]

“Energy transfer” is a myth.

Penetration kills.

That might be the funniest thing I read today, thank you. Apparently, you've never seen in slow-motion a bullet penetrating into ballistics gel, you know where the wound cavity is 15x the size of the bullet and the gel block jumps off the table. Yeah, where you can literally see the transfer of potential energy in the bullets mass at speed impacting a gel mass. That's science in action, not a myth, believe in the science man. BTW, not every penetration kills, thinking it did that would be a myth.

 

[HansGruber]

That might be the funniest thing I read today, thank you. Apparently, you've never seen in slow-motion a bullet penetrating into ballistics gel, you know where the wound cavity is 15x the size of the bullet and the gel block jumps off the table. Yeah, where you can literally see the transfer of potential energy in the bullets mass at speed impacting a gel mass. That's science in action, not a myth, believe in the science man. BTW, not every penetration kills, thinking it did that would be a myth.

If your point had any validity, the best dangerous game bullets would be small caliber, hyper velocity, frangibles that blew up on impact with next to no penetration, transferring all their energy immediately; .220 Swift would be the preeminent bear round.

If all that is true…why do dangerous game rifles all use solid construction, minimum expansion bullets designed for extreme penetration?

PS: never seen any animal that got its heart center punched live long. Unfortunately, however, I’ve seen several hit by shallow penetrating, frangible (varmint) bullets fail to drop quickly.

 

[Junior2K20]

If your point had any validity, the best dangerous game bullets would be small caliber, hyper velocity, frangibles that blew up on impact with next to no penetration, transferring all their energy immediately; .220 Swift would be the preeminent bear round.

If all that is true…why do dangerous game rifles all use solid construction, minimum expansion bullets designed for extreme penetration?

PS: never seen any animal that got its heart center punched live long. Unfortunately, however, I’ve seen several hit by shallow penetrating, frangible (varmint) bullets fail to drop quickly.

Nope, you're making a bad assumption, I clearly wrote "bullet mass at speed" ... and I never mentioned the type of bullet, I'm not an expert but I can see the science with my eyes. Also, you wrote that penetration kills without defining what is being penetrated. Obviously in most cases a direct hit to a vital organ will eventually drop an animal, but not every penetration kills like you stated and are apparently doubling down. What other silly assumptions do you want to make friend??

 

[HansGruber]

Nope, you're making a bad assumption, I clearly wrote "bullet mass at speed" ... and I never mentioned the type of bullet, I'm not an expert but I can see the science with my eyes. Also, you wrote that penetration kills without defining what is being penetrated. Obviously in most cases a direct hit to a vital organ will eventually drop an animal, but not every penetration kills like you stated and are apparently doubling down. What other silly assumptions do you want to make friend??

No, you’re backpedaling, friend. Sorry you can’t see it.

What you don’t (want to) realize is how little mass a gel block has compared to a living being. Quintuple (at minimum) that mass, and it’s gonna barely ripple.

The whole energy dump theory has been debunked for years—particularly when it comes to handgun bullets. If you want to talk rifle bullets, yeah, we can start discussing temporary cavity…but it still doesn’t matter if it can’t make to vital structure.

Permanent wound channel is what kills; not making the jello jump.

 

[Junior2K20]

No, you’re backpedaling, friend. Sorry you can’t see it.

What you don’t (want to) realize is how little mass a gel block has compared to a living being. Quintuple (at minimum) that mass, and it’s gonna barely ripple.

The whole energy dump theory has been debunked for years—particularly when it comes to handgun bullets. If you want to talk rifle bullets, yeah, we can start discussing temporary cavity…but it still doesn’t matter if it can’t make to vital structure.

Permanent wound channel is what kills; not making the jello jump.

ROFL, I'm not backpedaling at all, I'm pointing out your absurdities. Policing agencies all over the world have used ballistic gel as the de facto test medium comparable to the density of an animals innards, excluding bone. Please cite your sources which debunks energy dump theory, I'd love to read about it.

See now your backpedaling, saying that the permanent wound channel is what kills, so it's not purely penetration as you first claimed. Very interesting.

I can't wait to read about this debunked theory.

 

[HansGruber]

ROFL, I'm not backpedaling at all, I'm pointing out your absurdities. Policing agencies all over the world have used ballistic gel as the de facto test medium comparable to the density of an animals innards, excluding bone. Please cite your sources which debunks energy dump theory, I'd love to read about it.

See now your backpedaling, saying that the permanent wound channel is what kills, so it's not purely penetration as you first claimed. Very interesting.

I can't wait to read about this debunked theory.

Permanent channel is measured by depth and expansion.

So, yeah…penetration is pretty key to that.

But please, believe in your jumping jello. The agencies you cite don’t care about how much it moves—they only care about expansion & penetration.

Oh—check out the works of Roberts (DocGKR) for starters.

 

[Annihilator]

10mm vs 41 Mag (Updated: March 2023)

Both the 10mm and .41 mag in different ways have their abilities. They may differ in muzzle energies and weight, but they are ideal options for self-defense, tactical shooting, and hunting.

cleangunguide.com

 

[Lexie__M]

I finally met up with my gun dealer at the gun show today and picked up pistol he ordered for me two weeks ago.

Springfield Armory XDm Elite compact 3.8 10mm
While this is my first Springfield, it is not my first 10mm.