Rubber Bullets
- Thread starter cico7
- Start date
TEXASforLIFE
SAINT
Lyman?
At one point, I'd staged my HD shotgun with a Lightfield HD-STAR as an open-chamber starter, figuring that if I had the time, I'd drop it in.
But then I thought about the entire premise of armed, lethal-force home-defense, and decided against it.
If my family has retreated to our safe-room and the aggressor is still pressing the fight, that's lethal-force. Full stop.
But then I thought about the entire premise of armed, lethal-force home-defense, and decided against it.
If my family has retreated to our safe-room and the aggressor is still pressing the fight, that's lethal-force. Full stop.
JMHO , if it has come to needing to protect yourself and/or family from a bad person , who obviously is willing to hurt/kill you , why would anyone want to use rubber bullets?
I wouldn't contemplate using rubber bullets under such circumstances .
cico7
Custom
I have put a lot of thought into my goals and objectives of self defense. I like to practice my goals too to some degree.
Practice in drawing, plans, what to shoot, when to shoot, defensive plans. I don't want to debate the when and whether
but a way to complete my goal. I don't want to kill anyone, I want to stop the attacker. I don't want to blow unnecessary holes in the walls or injure by standers. I think of it as early warning. #1- rubber bullet you should stop now. #2 lead,3 lead, 4 lead, 5 lead,6,7,8,9, lead just in case you didn't get the first message. You may not get to the safe room and killing someone just because they break into the house doesn't mean I have to kill them but #1 and #2 should help change their minds. If not, that is what 6-10 (and extra mags) are for.
Practice in drawing, plans, what to shoot, when to shoot, defensive plans. I don't want to debate the when and whether
but a way to complete my goal. I don't want to kill anyone, I want to stop the attacker. I don't want to blow unnecessary holes in the walls or injure by standers. I think of it as early warning. #1- rubber bullet you should stop now. #2 lead,3 lead, 4 lead, 5 lead,6,7,8,9, lead just in case you didn't get the first message. You may not get to the safe room and killing someone just because they break into the house doesn't mean I have to kill them but #1 and #2 should help change their minds. If not, that is what 6-10 (and extra mags) are for.
cico7
Custom
The above is also a defensive statement. I can show in court I didn't want to kill anyone, they just couldn't read the warning signs....
It is home defense, I don't want to clean spatter, blow holes in the walls or injure someone else in the confines. I would not carry the rubber projectiles.
It is home defense, I don't want to clean spatter, blow holes in the walls or injure someone else in the confines. I would not carry the rubber projectiles.
cico7 , let me be clear , I don't want to kill anyone either. I will shoot , with real bullets , to stop the threat. As soon as that threat is stopped I will then call 911 and get help on the way.
One other thing ( I understand your reasoning here ) , lets say someone breaks in and you shoot them with a rubber bullet hoping to change their mind. The person who broke in just might have a firearm and shoot you with intent to kill you after you hit them with that rubber bullet. What I am saying is you might not have the chance to pull the trigger a second time. Just something to think about.
PS: I doubt there is anyone on this forum who wants to kill anyone
One other thing ( I understand your reasoning here ) , lets say someone breaks in and you shoot them with a rubber bullet hoping to change their mind. The person who broke in just might have a firearm and shoot you with intent to kill you after you hit them with that rubber bullet. What I am saying is you might not have the chance to pull the trigger a second time. Just something to think about.
PS: I doubt there is anyone on this forum who wants to kill anyone
C. Sumpin
Custom
The last thing I would want to do is terminate another human.
And will go to extreme measures never to get into that situation.
And take further extreme measures to E&E if I did get into that situation.
But if all bolts/locks/verbals have failed and I'm forced into my "defensive corner",
out of options, then no tennis balls for me!
And will go to extreme measures never to get into that situation.
And take further extreme measures to E&E if I did get into that situation.
But if all bolts/locks/verbals have failed and I'm forced into my "defensive corner",
out of options, then no tennis balls for me!
HansGruber
Ronin
This.
All of this.
And additionally: firing a projectile out of a firearm at someone is, usually, viewed as using lethal force. Whether it is rubber or lead makes zero difference.
See above.
Additionally--what happens when you only get ONE shot? Gonna suck, big time, if you can't stop them RIGHT THEN.
^ Exactly. My intent is also only to stop the threat. And as soon as that threat has ceased, I can and will offer aid.
Having retreated to our safe-room, the scenario as @C. Sumpin painted (and as I originally posed) is already one where I have not just tried to avoid the conflict - but that I have tried to do so to the extreme: that I am/my family are literally backed into the last safe area I/we have in my/our home. It's at a point where the situation is absolutely dire.
And as @HansGruber noted, the less-lethal response is not only legally problematic (in that it literally doesn't show that your intent wasn't to use lethal force), such ammunition are in and of themselves only "less-lethal," and not "non-lethal."
There's moral, ethical, and legal costs that will come to bear should I ever be so unfortunate as to be pressed into having to defend myself or my loved ones via lethal force. There are financial repercussions, too. This is absolutely a decision that I did not make likely.
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Purely from technique/technical perspectives, as you noted, @cico7 , there are functional considerations to be had, too.
Here, another reason why I dropped it from the straight-up 00-buck that currently fills my HD shotgun in both its magazine and the shell carriers is the relative complexity-in-operation and ready-ammo demands of the platform (standard 870). Alternative loads simply adds one more variable to an already complicated equation.
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Roadrunner
Elite
As already said,if you only get 1 shot and it's come to the point that you and your family is backed in a corner,a rubber bullet not only won't properly protect you but your family aswell,a threat is just that something threatens you and your family,nobody wants to kill anyone BUT as you have the gun in your hands it's your responsibility to keep you and your family safe,if it was me and it came to it the assailant would get a rather quick dose of lead poisoning end of
cico7
Custom
Yeah like...not cycling as my original concern...
lot of good reasoning and thought here even if your raining on my parade.
HansGruber
Ronin
If they don’t cycle, that’s a pretty good reason to avoid them, period.
The other arguments are just icing on the cake.
I wish I could find the original article - something I remember reading from years ago, written from a shooter who'd just come into the hobby/sport. She was a convert from the Anti community, and one thing she remarked on was how folks in the 2A community would insist on making sure that she heard what she needed to hear, even when what needed to be said to her was "difficult."
Over the years, I've truly enjoyed my friends "Red Teaming" my thoughts and suppositions: that they'd specifically take on the role of someone who tried to punch holes in my arguments. Two very specific cases where their challenges made me really soul-search (and later actually caused me to revamp my own stances) were in terms of training/2A and home-defense.
I really do think that we should respectfully challenge each other - it's how, I believe, we grow.
In terms of the need to use lethal-force for self-defense, it's really a topic that I approach with the utmost gravity. My personal belief is that I've *_lost_* the moment that I need to resort to lethal force: that it's a degree of loss that I am willing to accept (versus the alternative, which would mean either grave injury or loss-of-life for myself or my family - the latter of which is "My Mission" in the Varg Freeborn sense of the words). By needing to resort to lethal-force, it means that I have first and foremost failed to foresee the trouble that's about to happen, and secondarily, that I could not prevent it from progressing to that level of trouble. Furthermore, it would mean that my efforts at escape, de-escalation, as well as the progression along my own use-of-force spectrum have failed to be able to reach an alternative outcome.
Within the confines of my home, secured in the way that we deem sufficient -locks, reinforced doorways, lighting, alarms, etc.- and with my goals of first avoiding putting my family in danger via attempting to avoid a physical confrontation (by retreating to our safe-room), I believe that I have satisfied those AOJP (Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy, Preclusion) requirements.
Towards this, I'm going to unabashedly self-quote one of my past replies from elsewhere in this Forum (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/attorney-on-gun-modifications.9046/#post-112791) -
I'm laughing at this, but it's one of those laughs where it's the only thing one can do, as they're facing the absurd. And brother, is reality absurd.
Towards "bad outcomes," the idea that a bad result could stem from what should be legal -not only morally/ethially righteous- lethal-force self-defense, I submit the following interview on Spreaker (free), where Varg Freeborn chats with someone who "won" both his defensive-shooting encounter as well as the legal fallout that follows:
Be the Wolf : Episode 11 A Lethal Force Story
Have you ever heard a podcast with two guys discussing how they both had lethal force encounters and endured the subsequent legal and personal aftermath of it?www.spreaker.com
At the ~38 minute time-point, Varg speaks of "the horsepower" of having money to push through the legal system.
Don't believe these two guys (their stories have been vetted by multiple people in the industry, BTW)? I will point to XDTalk's long-time member ibwaldo's family's home-defense shoot: https://www.xdtalk.com/threads/ibwaldos-one-year-update-and-survivor-guide.186358/#post-3064689 (don't believe that because "the Interw3bz? well, in addition to the countless local media mentions that he cited, the story was also published in the January 2011 issue of American Rifleman).
This lone post of his should be sobering: https://www.xdtalk.com/threads/i-need-to-vent.161995/#post-2621864.
The decision to employ lethal force as a part of my self-defense or in the defense of my loved ones is definitely a topic that I take very seriously.
Bullwinkle J Moose
Alpha
If you are minding your own business in your own home and are attacked, "showing the court you didn't want to kill anyone" probably won't matter much. If you overthink yourself into using less than optimal weaponry and get yourself killed, it will matter.
KASHIRA-3
Elite
I have some reservations about using what everyone on the planet recognizes as a DEADLY weapon in a situation where I do not desire a lethal force option. Nobody is going to wonder what kind of projectiles you have in the gun, they are probably just going to see a deadly weapon. non lethal rounds may have their place in the world but not in my personal universe. If I dont need a gun then I dont need a gun. Im not going to use one that fires feathers and pixie dust.
Classified
Professional
I dont know, it have have the opposite reaction. If someone realizes the rounds are non lethal it may just enrage them, like adding more fuel to a fire. Unless you have CS gas and a team to back you up with lethal, you should be ready to put a stop to the threat, and that may be different for each person. Regardless you need to be proficient with whatever you choose.
HayesGreener
Ronin
They are "less lethal", not "non-lethal". In LE scenarios you aim for the extremities. My team used them in barricaded subject situations. We trained to only aim for extremities. They sting and leave welts and are a great distraction, especially with OC in the mix but probably won't put down a determined attacker unless you make a head shot. Now you are back in lethal force territory. Although they might work in certain defense situations, I would never recommend rubber projectiles for home defense
Bear007
Custom
@cico7, I have never shot rubber bullets but in answer to your question, it appears the pressure is too low to cycle your handgun making it an unreliable option for your defense. If you still want to pursue this path I would suggest picking up a double action revolver. At least your 2nd, 3rd, an so on ... shots will be there.
Personally it's all 3" mag 00 buck in the shotgun with a smooth bore rifle barrel and the heaviest, quality ammo, hollow points in all revolvers and pistols. Hopefully not, but if a situation ever does occur where I have to defend my family and/or myself, I will.
Fixing holes in the wall is much easier than the alternative ...
Personally it's all 3" mag 00 buck in the shotgun with a smooth bore rifle barrel and the heaviest, quality ammo, hollow points in all revolvers and pistols. Hopefully not, but if a situation ever does occur where I have to defend my family and/or myself, I will.
Fixing holes in the wall is much easier than the alternative ...