Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “Sherman Firefly — The British Tiger Killer” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/sherman-firefly/.
Sherman Firefly — The British Tiger Killer
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Cedric
Custom
A few comments:
- Foremost the Sherman was not designed as an infantry support tank. It was designed to do both anti-personnel and anti-armor jobs. There was no doctrine stating armor formations had to wait for tank destroyers to take on enemy tanks. Armor divisions were combined arms formations with tank destroyers sometimes attached but TDs are defensive weapons.
- The cramming of the 17 pounder led to one of the most ergonomically horrible interiors of any allied tank.
- The engagement the author mentions at 1000 meters is a pretty good shot considering the basic sabot they used couldn't hit the broad side of a barn outside of 500 meters.
Other than that, good article.
- Foremost the Sherman was not designed as an infantry support tank. It was designed to do both anti-personnel and anti-armor jobs. There was no doctrine stating armor formations had to wait for tank destroyers to take on enemy tanks. Armor divisions were combined arms formations with tank destroyers sometimes attached but TDs are defensive weapons.
- The cramming of the 17 pounder led to one of the most ergonomically horrible interiors of any allied tank.
- The engagement the author mentions at 1000 meters is a pretty good shot considering the basic sabot they used couldn't hit the broad side of a barn outside of 500 meters.
Other than that, good article.
USMC6094
Custom
They also fielded the M10 Achilles, a Limey modified M10 tank destroyer, also armed with the 17 pound gun.
As cool and powerful as the 17pdr was, it was a stopgap, like our high velocity 76mm/3in guns.
They held the line while we developed the 90mm, and the British their 32 pound gun.
Our 90s went operational, the 32 pounder proved too powerful for use on a tank of the period, but it was just as powerful as the Tiger IIs 88.
Those tankers had b@//$ that clanked together when they walked.......
As cool and powerful as the 17pdr was, it was a stopgap, like our high velocity 76mm/3in guns.
They held the line while we developed the 90mm, and the British their 32 pound gun.
Our 90s went operational, the 32 pounder proved too powerful for use on a tank of the period, but it was just as powerful as the Tiger IIs 88.
Those tankers had b@//$ that clanked together when they walked.......
USMC6094
Custom
I don't think the Brits got any Sherman's with the T23 turret, I know that we shoe horned the HV 76mm gun into the same turret as the Firefly did the 17pdr, you can see the aforementioned 76 in the 75 turret if you watch Kelly's Hero's, Oddballs Sherman was a post war rework of a 75mm Sherman we gave to Yugoslavia as military aid.
The 75mm turret soldiered on with a 105, and a 105 with a coaxial flamethrower into the Korean War
The 75mm turret soldiered on with a 105, and a 105 with a coaxial flamethrower into the Korean War
Talyn
SAINT
Yes, the Brits didn't.
BUT the US Army didn't use the Firefly turret for the 76mm, it was the T23.
While there were various versions of the T23 it was used in the US M4A1-3 Sherman's with the 76. But, Post-War they shoe-horned 76s into "small-turreted" 75mm Sherman's as part of the the foreign-aid MDAP program.
Early production M4A1 (76) Tank with T23
76mm turret | The Sherman Tank Site
www.theshermantank.com
It's mind boggling how many various iterations of the Sherman there are/where with a mish-mash of the small/large turret types with the various hull/engine types.
BONUS - Kelly's Hero's Sherman's
Surviving M4A3E4s are most numerous in the countries that once made up Yugoslavia, which is reported to have been allocated 599 "Tank, Medium, 76mm Gun, M4 Series" with 583 shipped as of 31 January 1954. Interested readers might wish to have a look at Pierre-Olivier's compilation of "Surviving Post-WWII Sherman Tanks." No doubt the most famous M4A3E4s are the ones featured in the 1970 MGM film "Kelly Heroes." According to Wikipedia, "The film was a US-Yugoslav co-production, filmed mainly in the Croatian village of Vižinada on the Istria peninsula."
BONUS #2
The Sherman Tank Site | The place for all things Sherman Tank
www.theshermantank.com
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Talyn
SAINT
BONUS #3 - Brit Firefly
www.theshermantank.com
BONUS #4 - Israeli Sherman's
www.theshermantank.com
The 105mm M-51 (T23 turret) with a small-turret 75mm M-50 in the back right.
BONUS #5 - Brit T23 Sherman's.
This says that Britain only received five M4A2(76) vehicles. Likely for testing purposes and never fielded in reality.
tankmuseum.org
#23 The Firefly: The Teapot With Teeth. | The Sherman Tank Site
www.theshermantank.com
BONUS #4 - Israeli Sherman's
#34 Israeli Shermans: The Most Powerful Shermans Ever To See Action. | The Sherman Tank Site
www.theshermantank.com
The 105mm M-51 (T23 turret) with a small-turret 75mm M-50 in the back right.
BONUS #5 - Brit T23 Sherman's.
This says that Britain only received five M4A2(76) vehicles. Likely for testing purposes and never fielded in reality.
M4A2E8 Sherman 'Fury' - The Tank Museum
This M4A2E8 Sherman tank starred alongside Brad Pitt as Fury in the Hollywood film of the same name. The Sherman was an American tank used in WW2.
tankmuseum.org
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The claim of Israeli Shermans with the 105 being the most powerful is correct only in that it specifies "to have seen action".
Numerous "Fireflies" were later purchased by Argentina and seriously up-gunned, up-armored and up-engined to create the "Repotenciados" with license-built 105mm guns from the French AMX-13, applique armor, smoke grenade launchers and Poyaud marine engines. Part of a rapid arming up in anticipation of unpleasantness with Chile over border issues that happily, did not take place. From the Museum of the Army, Buenos Aires. My photos. You can see a dismounted 17 pounder on the floor.
Numerous "Fireflies" were later purchased by Argentina and seriously up-gunned, up-armored and up-engined to create the "Repotenciados" with license-built 105mm guns from the French AMX-13, applique armor, smoke grenade launchers and Poyaud marine engines. Part of a rapid arming up in anticipation of unpleasantness with Chile over border issues that happily, did not take place. From the Museum of the Army, Buenos Aires. My photos. You can see a dismounted 17 pounder on the floor.
Attachments
Cedric
Custom
Another aspect id that the 76mm on the M18 TD is the same gun as on the Sherman and therefore why they didn't put it on Shermans earlier. Again, US developers were very conscious of ergonomics and an open top TD turret is fine for a defensive weapon, not an offensive maneuver tank advancing through artillery. We tried that as early as 1942 in the standard Sherman turret and it was a mess. Hence, the T23 turret solved the problem. Also, at Isigny in France in 1944 the 76mm out shot the 17 pdr at 1000 m with a 100% hit rate; the 17 pdr had zero hits.
The intro of the 90 in the Pershing was one of two controversies concerning US armor in WWII. It hadn't been tested and cleared by the Armor Board and Army Ground Forces commander (akin to FORSCOM today) Lt Gen. McNair was overridden. So in early 1945, 20 Pershings were sent over as part of Project Zebra. We already had north of 1000 M-36 Jackson TD with 90mm produced and shipped to Europe. Methinks one of the first cases of contractor influence.
The intro of the 90 in the Pershing was one of two controversies concerning US armor in WWII. It hadn't been tested and cleared by the Armor Board and Army Ground Forces commander (akin to FORSCOM today) Lt Gen. McNair was overridden. So in early 1945, 20 Pershings were sent over as part of Project Zebra. We already had north of 1000 M-36 Jackson TD with 90mm produced and shipped to Europe. Methinks one of the first cases of contractor influence.
Smiledon#57
Operator
This was the AFV's equivalent of a lightweight boxer with the punch of a heavyweight. German tank crews made the black joke that one German tank was better than 12 American tanks, but they always had 13 tanks.Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “Sherman Firefly — The British Tiger Killer” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/sherman-firefly/.
This variation is part of the long line of changes that the M-4 underwent over the course of its life.
The real lessons that the American tank designers learns was how to keep crews safe, (amour design), speed, and firepower. The latest version of the M-1 is all that. My humble opinion is that Mark IV panzer was equal to the M-4, and and the panzer mark V was faster, better armored, and armed than the Firefly. German tactics and leadership helped to balance out the supply issues coupled with allied close air support which made German tank movements dangerous.
When the M-26 came on line, that was an AFV that was able to go toe to toe with any German AVF.
Cedric
Custom
JMO. The German tank crews black joke depended on the better crew and leadership. Post D-Day the Germans were lacking in both. US tankers were able to handle Tigers and Panthers in Sicily and Italy and had developed TTP to pass on to other units. The street cred of the Panther was boosted in the hedgerow fighting where US forces could not maneuver and had to go head to head. A few months later this German advantage went away as our forces broke out and could maneuver, The Battle of Arracourt is one example:
There is also the notion out there the Sherman had "paper thin" armor. I'm looking at the Army TM (tech manual) for the M4A3 75mm gun Sherman and the frontal armor is two inches sloped at 57 degrees which is the equivalent of 3.7 inches approaching that of the Tiger at 4 inches. Turret front is three inches and turret flank is two inches, and hull flank 1.5 inches; actually thicker than the early Panther models. This is not "paper thin."
My .02
There is also the notion out there the Sherman had "paper thin" armor. I'm looking at the Army TM (tech manual) for the M4A3 75mm gun Sherman and the frontal armor is two inches sloped at 57 degrees which is the equivalent of 3.7 inches approaching that of the Tiger at 4 inches. Turret front is three inches and turret flank is two inches, and hull flank 1.5 inches; actually thicker than the early Panther models. This is not "paper thin."
My .02
Brad Bradsher
Alpha
Thank you, Will! It was always a great pleasure when I was young to have a visit from my beloved Aunt Dode and Uncle Gordy from Toronto. Gordy would spin tales of his adventures as a Sherman commander in France.
My Uncle Gordy was 1st Hussars Lt. Gordon Henry, the "Panther ace" whose crew knocked out the five big cats with five shots in a matter of minutes.
Photo: Uncle Gordy
My Uncle Gordy was 1st Hussars Lt. Gordon Henry, the "Panther ace" whose crew knocked out the five big cats with five shots in a matter of minutes.
Photo: Uncle Gordy
