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Should You Retreat? Castle Doctrine vs. Stand Your Ground

There's a very interesting and important case upcoming in Massachusetts. A pro-Israel rally participant was attacked by a man that ran across a street and tackled him and put him in a headlock. Fearing for his life, he pulled out his legally concealed weapon and shot his assailant. Middlesex District Attorney Marian Ryan is pressing charges saying his life wasn't in imminent danger. I hope his defense attorney uses Ms. Ryan as a test subject in the courtroom and clamps a headlock on her to prove how dangerous it can be.
 
wbnash said:
These doctrines have different impact in different jurisdictions.

In many, they create a presumption that the shooter is in the right. You need to recognize that the presumption can be overcome by objective facts that end up making the shoot unlawful.

Example: 2am in your home and you hear someone in the house. You are armed and go see what is going on. In the darkness you see a person moving toward you. Bang probably is OK.

Different facts: 2pm in the afternoon and the same thing happens. You go to confront the intruder in daylight and see a 14 year old kid with no visible weapon who has your TV in his arms. Bang probably is not OK. The objective facts showed no risk of serious bodily harm or death to you and they overcome the presumption that you acted reasonably.
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My cane across his shin will make him limp like I do and his parents can pay for my TV.
 
HansGruber said:
That’s about as intelligent as saying “If you own an expensive car, don’t drive it, because you might get in an accident and total it”.

If I use a firearm to save my life,I don’t care how much it cost…it’s paid for itself a million times over. If I never see it again, it was still worth every penny.

It’s a ridiculous rationalization to carry a cheap gun.
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Well said.
 
Oldnewenglandhunter said:
There's a very interesting and important case upcoming in Massachusetts. A pro-Israel rally participant was attacked by a man that ran across a street and tackled him and put him in a headlock. Fearing for his life, he pulled out his legally concealed weapon and shot his assailant. Middlesex District Attorney Marian Ryan is pressing charges saying his life wasn't in imminent danger. I hope his defense attorney uses Ms. Ryan as a test subject in the courtroom and clamps a headlock on her to prove how dangerous it can be.
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If you follow anything to do with Firearms and Massachusetts it’s as glaring as a solar flare. Having lived in Connecticut for 54 years and knowing how Liberal Massachusetts is and how it’s almost impossible to get CC license let alone the hoops you have to jump through to even buy a gun I’m not surprised at all about that prosecutor bringing charges.
 
HansGruber said:
That’s about as intelligent as saying “If you own an expensive car, don’t drive it, because you might get in an accident and total it”.

If I use a firearm to save my life,I don’t care how much it cost…it’s paid for itself a million times over. If I never see it again, it was still worth every penny.

It’s a ridiculous rationalization to carry a cheap
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I agree. If you use a firearm to defend yourself, loss of a gun will be the least of your problems. Legal fees will far outweigh Any firearm’s cost. I use a high quality extremely reliable firearm that I can shoot well for EDC-and always will. A gun is a tool, and tools can always be replaced. Your life, or the life of your loved ones is worth far more than a dozen of the most expensive handguns you can buy.
 
Keystone19250 said:
If you follow anything to do with Firearms and Massachusetts it’s as glaring as a solar flare. Having lived in Connecticut for 54 years and knowing how Liberal Massachusetts is and how it’s almost impossible to get CC license let alone the hoops you have to jump through to even buy a gun I’m not surprised at all about that prosecutor bringing charges.
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CT is a Piece of 💩 state.
They are as bad or worse than RI, Mass, CA.

I was born in Hartford, and my parents couldnt move me to Tx soon enough !!!
 
HansGruber said:
That’s about as intelligent as saying “If you own an expensive car, don’t drive it, because you might get in an accident and total it”.

If I use a firearm to save my life,I don’t care how much it cost…it’s paid for itself a million times over. If I never see it again, it was still worth every penny.

It’s a ridiculous rationalization to carry a cheap gun.
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Not so. I have a $2,000+ custom 1911 and a $700 stock 1911. They are equally reliable, but the expensive one shoots somewhat tighter groups that offer no practical advantage. For EDC I *always* choose the stock pistol.

And if I owned a Ferrari, no, I would not drive it down to the grocery store; I would drive my Ford and keep the Ferrari out of the parking lot full of shopping carts and knuckleheads.

I don't understand your logic at all.
 
CNS100 said:
Not so. I have a $2,000+ custom 1911 and a $700 stock 1911. They are equally reliable, but the expensive one shoots somewhat tighter groups that offer no practical advantage. For EDC I *always* choose the stock pistol.

And if I owned a Ferrari, no, I would not drive it down to the grocery store; I would drive my Ford and keep the Ferrari out of the parking lot full of shopping carts and knuckleheads.

I don't understand your logic at all.
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I guess I’m not afraid to use quality tools for their intended purpose.

Others choose differently.
 
CNS100 said:
Not so. I have a $2,000+ custom 1911 and a $700 stock 1911. They are equally reliable, but the expensive one shoots somewhat tighter groups that offer no practical advantage. For EDC I *always* choose the stock pistol.

And if I owned a Ferrari, no, I would not drive it down to the grocery store; I would drive my Ford and keep the Ferrari out of the parking lot full of shopping carts and knuckleheads.

I don't understand your logic at all.
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Enjoy life.

My folks used their waterford crystal and sterling silver everyday.
I’d drive a Ferrari everyday. Why not.

Your most expensive asset is most likely your house and you use it everyday, correct?

By your logic, go sleep in a tent in the yard so your dont depreciate your house
 
Nobody here wants to shoot anyone. If your plan is to not shoot them, you better be real fast at figuring out whether or not they are going to try to shoot or kill you. If someone kicks your front door in is your plan to climb out your bedroom window with your wife and call the cops from the neighbors house ?
 
I like to watch “on patrol live” tv show.

Here’s a doozy for ya..
Home invasion with gun
Homeowner and perp both get shot..
homeowner must not practice or ever taught on how to hold a gun …
IMG_8987.jpeg

His significant other is in bed behind him and gets shot by perp in back.
Homeowner gets shot in leg, and other places. Perp gets hit in leg.

I’m just was in amazement on how this guy handles his gun with two hands by using his support hand under the barrel and around the slide. Prob has a hurt hand as well to being shot. So much, “oh no” going on in this video

https://fb.watch/xL7JoTHd7X
 
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Always know your state regs/laws in regards to use of force, as well as possible consequences.

In my state...

MCA 45-3-101. Definitions.​

(1) "Force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm" within the meaning of this chapter includes but is not limited to:
(a) the firing of a firearm in the direction of a person, even though no purpose exists to kill or inflict serious bodily harm; and
(b) the firing of a firearm at a vehicle in which a person is riding.

(2) "Forcible felony" means any felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

MCA 45-3-102. Use of force in defense of person. A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the conduct is necessary for self-defense or the defense of another against the other person's imminent use of unlawful force. However, the person is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent imminent death or serious bodily harm to the person or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

MCA 45-3-103.(1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure.

(2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if:
(a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or
(b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure.

MCA 45-3-104. Use of force in defense of other property. A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with either real property, other than an occupied structure, or personal property lawfully in the person's possession or in the possession of another who is a member of the person's immediate family or household or of a person whose property the person has a legal duty to protect. However, the person is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

MCA 45-3-105. Use of force by aggressor.​

The justification described in 45-3-102 through 45-3-104 is not available to a person who:
(1) is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) purposely or knowingly provokes the use of force against the person, unless:
(a) the force is so great that the person reasonably believes that the person is in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm and that the person has exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger other than the use of force that is likely to cause death or serious bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) in good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that the person desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.


However, folks should realize that there can be consequences to the use of force.

Consequences
  • You may be accused of a crime.
  • The state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the use of force was not justified.
  • A jury will decide if the force was justified.

Self-defense law in Montana summary
  • You don't have a duty to retreat or summon law enforcement before using force.
  • The law relies on "reasonableness".
  • You shouldn't try to hide your actions.
  • If you use force in self-defense, you should call law enforcement if necessary.
  • You should get an attorney to guide you through the investigation.
Montana does not have any codified protection from liability for justifiable self-defense. That means you could potentially be sued if you shoot someone in self-defense.
 
CNS100 said:
Not so. I have a $2,000+ custom 1911 and a $700 stock 1911. They are equally reliable, but the expensive one shoots somewhat tighter groups that offer no practical advantage. For EDC I *always* choose the stock pistol.

And if I owned a Ferrari, no, I would not drive it down to the grocery store; I would drive my Ford and keep the Ferrari out of the parking lot full of shopping carts and knuckleheads.

I don't understand your logic at all.
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There’s nothing more exhilarating than crashing an expensive sports car because you were driving it as intended. You gotta live life. If I get a gun confiscated, then I’m alive, with a story very few have. One less gun wouldn’t even make a dent.
 
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