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Stop Calling These Accidents

HayesGreener said:
It is negligence plain and simple
www.policemag.com

Off-Duty CA Officer Shoots Self, Kills Bystander While Cleaning Gun

Officer Francisco Villicana was cleaning his personal gun Friday around 5:45 p.m. in Salinas when he mistakenly fired the single round that killed Luis Alfredo Ferro-Sanchez, police said.
www.policemag.com www.policemag.com
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Spot on Hayes, although the article shared leaves a lot of unknowns with the individual who died being mentioned as a “bystander”???
(Who cleans their weapons; let alone a LEO “who should no better” in front of anyone)

I clean my guns when I’m alone so there are no distractions, in this reported incident this will probably be found to be a negligent discharge which screams poor training. Not even close to an accident.
 
Sorry, I am a big stickler on this, and, however avoidable it was, it was still, technically, an accident. Unless he actually really did mean to do it, which, I doubt he meant to shoot himself in the hand, it was an accident. An accident caused by his neglect, but an accident, nonetheless. If there was no intent, it was an accident.

Most likely, it was probably a Glock. He probably dropped the mag, but still had a round in the chamber. He pulled the trigger as required for disassembly, and, bang
 
PAGunGuy said:
Sorry, I am a big stickler on this, and, however avoidable it was, it was still, technically, an accident. Unless he actually really did mean to do it, which, I doubt he meant to shoot himself in the hand, it was an accident. An accident caused by his neglect, but an accident, nonetheless. If there was no intent, it was an accident.

Most likely, it was probably a Glock. He probably dropped the mag, but still had a round in the chamber. He pulled the trigger as required for disassembly, and, bang
Click to expand...

You should be a tort reform lawyer. I guarantee RJ Reynolds never intentionally killed any smokers and Monsanto didn't mean for anyone to get lymphoma. The difference isn't between accidental and intentional, it's between accidental and negligent. There is no such thing as an accidental discharge of a weapon. EVERY unintentional discharge of a firearm is negligent in my opinion.
 
The injuries are very possible if he was using a very popular make of firearm that requires you to pull the trigger to disassemble. There are scores of injuries aka shots to the hand 30 some years later because people don’t know what a safe direction is.

Also as a retired LE Trainer there is a 10% 80% 10% breakdown in LE Training with Firearms. Top 10 always training and are your top shooters. Middle 80 meet agency standards most by 10 points or less and are the ones “good enough til next year” and bottom 10 which are why agencies have to dumb stuff down (even the Federal Air Marshals made their course easier because of this)

Of course I see a lot of lackadaisical firearm handling by civilians too. Go to any range and watch random folks get their handguns ready. They sweep their arms and hands multiple times remiviving/placing in the range bags, loading/unloading list goes on.

Firearms proficiency is like driving. Just because any officer or civilian passed a state test with minimum passing score doesn’t meant all of them are proficient.
 
PAGunGuy said:
Sorry, I am a big stickler on this, and, however avoidable it was, it was still, technically, an accident. Unless he actually really did mean to do it, which, I doubt he meant to shoot himself in the hand, it was an accident. An accident caused by his neglect, but an accident, nonetheless. If there was no intent, it was an accident.

Most likely, it was probably a Glock. He probably dropped the mag, but still had a round in the chamber. He pulled the trigger as required for disassembly, and, bang
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I will have to respectfully disagree. Failure to follow established safety procedures and safety rules that are doctrine is negligence. In this instance resulting in a death. If a gun for example is inadvertently knocked off a table and it fires, that might be an accident. There are criminal neglligence laws in most states. If it happened as described the officer involved is a candidate.
 
ECS686 said:
The injuries are very possible if he was using a very popular make of firearm that requires you to pull the trigger to disassemble. There are scores of injuries aka shots to the hand 30 some years later because people don’t know what a safe direction is.

Also as a retired LE Trainer there is a 10% 80% 10% breakdown in LE Training with Firearms. Top 10 always training and are your top shooters. Middle 80 meet agency standards most by 10 points or less and are the ones “good enough til next year” and bottom 10 which are why agencies have to dumb stuff down (even the Federal Air Marshals made their course easier because of this)

Of course I see a lot of lackadaisical firearm handling by civilians too. Go to any range and watch random folks get their handguns ready. They sweep their arms and hands multiple times remiviving/placing in the range bags, loading/unloading list goes on.

Firearms proficiency is like driving. Just because any officer or civilian passed a state test with minimum passing score doesn’t meant all of them are proficient.
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Yep. And I learned through many years of training to never underestimate a student's creativity in circumventing safety protocols
 
While I was still working at my sheriffs dept, a deputy just got a new S&W 4506, he was in the men’s locker room and didn’t understand how the safety worked, chambered a round and he thought he had the safety on, pulled trigger and gun went off, luckily he had it aimed at the closet and bullet went in there……… no such thing as accidental discharge, lack of training and not being familiar with said weapon.
 
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I've been around guns for over 20 years and I'm not going to lie to you they still scare me a little bit and I think that's a good thing.

Whenever I clean my glock I unload it in the bedroom and I take it to the cleaning area with the slide locked to the rear.

When I get to the cleaning area I shine a flashlight down the bore and make sure that I can see light in the chamber.

I am completely aware that this is massive overkill. I'm also aware that I've never shot my refrigerator while cleaning my gun.
 
HayesGreener said:
It is negligence plain and simple
www.policemag.com

Off-Duty CA Officer Shoots Self, Kills Bystander While Cleaning Gun

Officer Francisco Villicana was cleaning his personal gun Friday around 5:45 p.m. in Salinas when he mistakenly fired the single round that killed Luis Alfredo Ferro-Sanchez, police said.
www.policemag.com www.policemag.com
Click to expand...
During my 42 year combined career Military/LEO I could never understand how this could happen when it is engrained in the mind to clear the weapon and remove all ammo from the work station. Why he choose to see if the weapon was clear by pulling the trigger is unknown. I found in my LEO time that Officers received proper training but for some reason would disregard it as if it had no merit anymore. I had a partner who blew is thumb off with a Glock 17 and then tried to sue Glock for his negligence. To make matters worse he was a member of the range staff. I could never understand what compels some one to disregard very simple safety guidelines especially with weapons handling. It’s incidents like this and what occurred in Uvalde, Texas that really shed bad sentiments about the profession and for good reason. Being that this officer is in the Bay Area he is more than likely going to get filed on for involuntary manslaughter. I hate to see this happen but there has to be accountability for taking a life when it was absolutely avoidable. This Officer is going to no doubt experience criminal and civil implications. Sad situation
 
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