Struggling with dots

[TurboDog910]

I’m on the struggle bus folks. I only own two handguns now with optics. I’m just an old dog trying to learn new tricks.Today I took out the CC9 that came with Holosun. The dot is set at 25 yards. When practicing at 3,5,7,12,15 and 20 I’m low. I have never been in a defensive situation but from my understanding most do occur much closer than 25 yds. Are red dots really faster particularly at closer range?
When using irons alone I’m on target within 1 inch groupings.
Thoughts and feedback please.
Thanks

 

[Pitdogg2]

Coming off iron sights there is a learning curve. Practice more.

 

[Arthur Shelby]

I’m on the struggle bus folks. I only own two handguns now with optics. I’m just an old dog trying to learn new tricks.Today I took out the CC9 that came with Holosun. The dot is set at 25 yards. When practicing at 3,5,7,12,15 and 20 I’m low. I have never been in a defensive situation but from my understanding most do occur much closer than 25 yds. Are red dots really faster particularly at closer range?
When using irons alone I’m on target within 1 inch groupings.
Thoughts and feedback please.
Thanks

Dots are faster, especially on follow-ups...once you're accustomed to it.

Remember that if you're not seeing the dot quickly, it's probably high.

The dot should be set to achieve a reasonably flat trajectory for shots within that range with common ammo in that caliber. Anything 1-4" low is going to be in the zone.

 

[Lab4Us]

When I get a new optic, I zero it at 7yds (kind of dictated by my local range, indoor, with 15 yd max lines). I have found the zero at 7 yds works very well at 3yds and 15 yds (the other two “marked distances”), and even 5 yds and 10 yds, which I have to estimate between the three marked distances.

As OP mentioned, I’m pretty sure a realistic self defense distance will be closer than 21 feet (7 yds).

The dots, to me, aren’t really about tight groups, they are about round on target as soon as possible. And to be honest, I always maintain that an instantaneous self defense employment of a firearm is going to be point shooting, likely using no sights.

Now if I was trying to line up a longer shot, say beyond 10 - 15 yds to maybe take out an active shooter like the mall shooter a while back, I’ll take a DOT over irons any day - mainly because I wear trifocals, have a lifelong astigmatism, and my eyes are just about 67 years old. In other words, I would have a hard time focusing on a front sight focused sight picture and reliably hit a target at distance. An optic makes that shot way more easier, and accurate, “for me”.

I do agree that more practice helps with dots, as does learning how to set your zero and figuring out a distance for zero that will work best for your predicted self defense scenarios.

But nothing says you can’t have/use/practice with irons and optics. I do it all the time, including some occasional point shooting without using any sights.

And if an optic fails at a critical juncture, you’re either going to be using irons or point shooting anyway, so it seems beneficial to practice those skills.

 

[Bassbob]

I’m on the struggle bus folks. I only own two handguns now with optics. I’m just an old dog trying to learn new tricks.Today I took out the CC9 that came with Holosun. The dot is set at 25 yards. When practicing at 3,5,7,12,15 and 20 I’m low. I have never been in a defensive situation but from my understanding most do occur much closer than 25 yds. Are red dots really faster particularly at closer range?
When using irons alone I’m on target within 1 inch groupings.
Thoughts and feedback please.
Thanks

Zero your dot at 13-15 yards. Then when you shoot at 25 yards aim a little high. All my carry guns are zero'ed at 15 yards and my ARs are zeroed at 50 yards. Yes dots are faster.

 

[Bassbob]

Your optic should co-witness with your irons. When you're shooting with a dot you're going to not want to sit there struggling to keep the dot still because you never will. Put the dot on the target and shoot. The learning curve for switching over to dots didn't take long for me. You should be shooting with both eyes open and you should have your draw practiced so much that it automatically presents with the dot right there in the window and very close to on target.

If you're having trouble finding the dot, switch your 507 to the doughnut of death reticle.

 

[powerboatr]

Coming off iron sights there is a learning curve. Practice more.

100% correct
i struggle to find that happy medium
i have them on 2 pistols set at zero at 25 feet (FEET)
and i still lose the dot in the sights
i keep thinking i am doing it wrong,
then when i put the dot in the middle of the sight...viola it hits perfect
its unnatural i think
i may try to zero barrel then run my green sights up a tick so the dot is in the middle of the optic screen
i am used to seeing a red dot out at the target so it does not matter as much with a good sight picture
or its we are old and our brains simply are not letting us adapt

 

[Arthur Shelby]

Let's put it this way...

The Ruger Ready-Dot has a 15 MOA!!! dot and it still hits the target at self-defense distances. Per TFBTV.

 

[HayesGreener]

Re. Bassbob is right. Zero at 15. Finding the dot is easier with proper presentation of the pistol. Bring the gun up to eyelevel, don't crouch or bend your neck down to see the dot (turtle). Inside of 5 yards, forget the dot, just put the target in the "window" and shoot. Practice one shot drills from the holster at various yardages. Focus on fundamentals of grip, draw and trigger management. Use a shot timer but take time to hit the target you intend, no misses. Don't worry about speed at first, work on 100% accuracy. If you are getting misses or losing the dot slow down. Speed will come with practice. In the end, following the fundamentals you will find your times are much better with the dot than with irons

 

[OldGrunt]

Re. Bassbob is right. Zero at 15. Finding the dot is easier with proper presentation of the pistol. Bring the gun up to eyelevel, don't crouch or bend your neck down to see the dot (turtle). Inside of 5 yards, forget the dot, just put the target in the "window" and shoot. Practice one shot drills from the holster at various yardages. Focus on fundamentals of grip, draw and trigger management. Use a shot timer but take time to hit the target you intend, no misses. Don't worry about speed at first, work on 100% accuracy. If you are getting misses or losing the dot slow down. Speed will come with practice. In the end, following the fundamentals you will find your times are much better with the dot than with irons

Exactly this. Don't go with you can't teach an old dog new tricks BS. Practice. I'm so tired of old guys putting down dot sights without out really trying. I'm just a few months sort of 60, and green dot sights were a game changer for me.

 

[Bassbob]

Re. Bassbob is right. Zero at 15. Finding the dot is easier with proper presentation of the pistol. Bring the gun up to eyelevel, don't crouch or bend your neck down to see the dot (turtle). Inside of 5 yards, forget the dot, just put the target in the "window" and shoot. Practice one shot drills from the holster at various yardages. Focus on fundamentals of grip, draw and trigger management. Use a shot timer but take time to hit the target you intend, no misses. Don't worry about speed at first, work on 100% accuracy. If you are getting misses or losing the dot slow down. Speed will come with practice. In the end, following the fundamentals you will find your times are much better with the dot than with irons

You retired military, slash retired LEO guys must all take the same classes. These are the same exact fundamentals that were drilled into my head by my instructor, Bill the Thrill, who is a 20 year retired USMC combat veteran and marksmanship instructor as well as a 20 plus year retired police captain who was the marksmanship instructor and also led the "Jump out boys" ( SWAT) in one of the shittiest municipalities in the STL area for many years.

 

[Warrior9(Ret)]

I’m 63 and have had cataract and detached retina surgeries in both eyes. After reading many articles about the benefits of RD optics I’ve decided to go with the Green Dot / Circle reticle.
I’ve looked at several models at a local Gun store. I’m still able to shoot using the pistol sights and place rounds in the “Sweet Spots”.
I know there’s going to be a learning curve. That’s why I’m doing plenty of research.

 

[Annihilator]

 

[Bassbob]

I’m 63 and have had cataract and detached retina surgeries in both eyes. After reading many articles about the benefits of RD optics I’ve decided to go with the Green Dot / Circle reticle.
I’ve looked at several models at a local Gun store. I’m still able to shoot using the pistol sights and place rounds in the “Sweet Spots”.
I know there’s going to be a learning curve. That’s why I’m doing plenty of research.

Green is definitely the way to go. And I prefer the "Doughnut of death" reticle too. At least for unmagnified optics. It's great for shotguns. I have red ones on most of the ARs, but only because I discovered the green after I had already set them up and I'm too cheap to switch them all, again. Most of them used to have Romeo 5s on them, but now either have 510s or 512s. The red works fine, but green is much better to me.

 

[HayesGreener]

I attended a couple of LEO friearms instructor courses on red dots for duty pistols a few years ago. Agencies were just starting to consider RDS for duty pistols with a lot of pressure from rank and file. The focus was on choosing an RDS and training officers to transition from iron sights to optics. We saw optics from a number of manufacturers and shot them a lot. Some held up, some failed during the courses. I think we were divided on preference for red dot vs green dot vs amber dots. We were unanimous for high quality RDS with top loading batteries, shake awake technology, and drilling students on proper presentation. We were also hard over on requiring novice shooters to become proficient with irons before using an RDS. I do not know how academies are currently dealing with this. Nowadays I rarely see a pistol without an RDS in officers holsters.

 

[Bassbob]

I attended a couple of LEO friearms instructor courses on red dots for duty pistols a few years ago. Agencies were just starting to consider RDS for duty pistols with a lot of pressure from rank and file. The focus was on choosing an RDS and training officers to transition from iron sights to optics. We saw optics from a number of manufacturers and shot them a lot. Some held up, some failed during the courses. I think we were divided on preference for red dot vs green dot vs amber dots. We were unanimous for high quality RDS with top loading batteries, shake awake technology, and drilling students on proper presentation. We were also hard over on requiring novice shooters to become proficient with irons before using an RDS. I do not know how academies are currently dealing with this. Nowadays I rarely see a pistol without an RDS in officers holsters.

Funny you say that. I don't think I've seen any cops here with an RDS on their duty Glocks. And I definitely check their guns out when I see them. Most of the cops I shoot/train with are using them, but I don't think those are necessarily their duty weapons.

 

[TurboDog910]

Lots of feedback, thank you all.
I’m not having difficulty finding the dot or “recapturing” it on follow ups. I believe Simon posted a video a few months ago that has been helpful with consistency. The gentleman described his presentation as a “wave” type motion.
I’m getting consistent groups. Just they are all low at varying distances <25 yards where it’s zeroed. Going off Bassbob and a few others suggestion I think I’ll need to zero to 13-15 yards as opposed to 25. Closer to the median.

 

[Bassbob]

Lots of feedback, thank you all.
I’m not having difficulty finding the dot or “recapturing” it on follow ups. I believe Simon posted a video a few months ago that has been helpful with consistency. The gentleman described his presentation as a “wave” type motion.
I’m getting consistent groups. Just they are all low at varying distances <25 yards where it’s zeroed. Going off Bassbob and a few others suggestion I think I’ll need to zero to 13-15 yards as opposed to 25. Closer to the median.

Well, I don't do it like the guy in Simon's video ( I do know the video you are referencing), at least not consciously, but it really doesn't matter as long as what you are doing works for you and is repeatable. However, Simon is the one who persuaded me to change my zero from the typical 25 yards to 15 and that was definitely the right move for me. I reinforced that fact this morning at the range. My dot is zeroed at 15 yards. Circumstances led me to begin my session at 25 yards. Then I moved up to 15 yards for a bit and then back to 25 and out to 50. Near 100% combat accuracy, which is the only thing that concerns me. If I wanted to be a bullseye shooter I don't think I'd be using a dot, though at 15 yards I can make one ragged hole with a dot if I'm not shooting for times. In fact after the first 50 rounds this morning I even said to myself, "Yep, 15 yards is key for zero".

With a 15 yard zero you don't need to make any adjustment from 0-15 yards. When you stretch it out you just aim higher. No one's trying to do math when you're drilling on the range, much less when you're trying to save your own ass.

 

[HayesGreener]

Funny you say that. I don't think I've seen any cops here with an RDS on their duty Glocks. And I definitely check their guns out when I see them. Most of the cops I shoot/train with are using them, but I don't think those are necessarily their duty weapons.

Budgets. Its a big investment to issue department wide. Most duty guns that are a few years old won't have slide cuts so you are looking at an RDS plus a new gun or at least a replacement slide, plus training costs. If the department is well capitalized they can issue. Some curmudgeons don't like them. I think a lot of agencies are making them optional. I happen to be in an area with agency heads who are gun guys. A training organization I am affiliated with is doing a survey of agencies on use of RDS in OIS incidents. I am looking forward to seeing the report.

 

[KillerFord1977]

I’m on the struggle bus folks. I only own two handguns now with optics. I’m just an old dog trying to learn new tricks.Today I took out the CC9 that came with Holosun. The dot is set at 25 yards. When practicing at 3,5,7,12,15 and 20 I’m low. I have never been in a defensive situation but from my understanding most do occur much closer than 25 yds. Are red dots really faster particularly at closer range?
When using irons alone I’m on target within 1 inch groupings.
Thoughts and feedback please.
Thanks

Bring your gun to your eye level, not your head down to the dot.
Many struggle with finding the dot.
Keep your head still looking ahead and practice bringing the dot up to eye level, and not scrunching your head down to the dot in a “tactical” pose.