Struggling with dots

[Bassbob]

Budgets. Its a big investment to issue department wide. Most duty guns that are a few years old won't have slide cuts so you are looking at an RDS plus a new gun or at least a replacement slide, plus training costs. If the department is well capitalized they can issue. Some curmudgeons don't like them. I think a lot of agencies are making them optional. I happen to be in an area with agency heads who are gun guys. A training organization I am affiliated with is doing a survey of agencies on use of RDS in OIS incidents. I am looking forward to seeing the report.

I'd be interested in hearing about that report.

And I'm certain you are correct. Especially here where police shootings are very rare. I think there were 2 last year.

What I would like to see ( although I guarantee some yahoo would screw it up for everyone else) is agencies allow guys to use their own firearms, you know, after some sort of test to insure the weapon was safe and the user could prove accuracy. My guess is that could never happen because lawyers and insurance companies would never let it happen, but....

 

[Bassbob]

Bring your gun to your eye level, not your head down to the dot.
Many struggle with finding the dot.
Keep your head still looking ahead and practice bringing the dot up to eye level, and not scrunching your head down to the dot in a “tactical” pose.

Yep. Like the cop instructors are fond of saying, don't be a turtle.

 

[SL66]

At 59 years old the dot works for me,
Both eyes open focused on target (3" shoot n see)
Bring dot to target while focused on nothing but target.
When dot covers target, send it.
Think of it like driving a car, we look where we want to go and the car goes to that spot. If we look at the hood of the car we are driving, we are in trouble.
I am no bullseye shooter but as you see below, my results are acceptable and similar from 7 or 15 yards.
I have been shooting dots for a while, with practice the dot will automatically be where you want it without the search.
Keep at it, you will be surprised!
Good shooting friend.

 

[Bassbob]

At 59 years old the dot works for me,
Both eyes open focused on target (3" shoot n see)
Bring dot to target while focused on nothing but target.
When dot covers target, send it.
Think of it like driving a car, we look where we want to go and the car goes to that spot. If we look at the hood of the car we are driving, we are in trouble.
I am no bullseye shooter but as you see below, my results are acceptable ans similar from 7 or 15 yards.
I have been shooting dots for a while, with practice the dot will automatically be where you want it without the search.
Keep at it, you will be surprised!
Good shooting friend.

Yup. Combat accuracy right there. Perfectly acceptable my friend.

 

[SimonRL]

Lots of feedback, thank you all.
I’m not having difficulty finding the dot or “recapturing” it on follow ups. I believe Simon posted a video a few months ago that has been helpful with consistency. The gentleman described his presentation as a “wave” type motion.
I’m getting consistent groups. Just they are all low at varying distances <25 yards where it’s zeroed. Going off Bassbob and a few others suggestion I think I’ll need to zero to 13-15 yards as opposed to 25. Closer to the median.

Here it is again. I’ve trained with this crew and they know what they’re talking about. I’m about to take a two day course with one of the instructors in a couple of weeks time. I have more dots than most people have had hot dinners and I practice all the time with them and acquiring the dot is simply about technique. @HayesGreener is correct when he says if you put the window on target you are going to hit even if you don’t see the dot. I actually use a silver Sharpie and make a mark in the center of the window frame at the top. I know that at bad breath range if I put that silver dot on target it is going to hit that target’s A zone and it buys you time to find your dot for rapid follow up shot - which is great for Mozambique Drills. Lots of good advice has been offered. Bring your dot up to eye level - don’t turtle. Practice, practice, practice. Grip technique is key. It has to be consistent every time.

Btw, I zero at 15 yds and I own from 3-25 yds with that zero.

 

[UC_Guy 1971]

Well where you dial in your dot will determine when it will send rounds high or low. For an EDC gun I sight in at 10 yards. Then I shoot at the other ranges to see how this is reflected.

Also, I would say that from 0 to 10 or even 15 yards... sights are optional. Depending upon your skill level. Inside of 7 it really should be point and click. At least for just hitting COM on the fly.

When you say that you shoot one inch groups with irons, that's great. If you can't do that with a dot either your dot is busted and won't keep a tight zero or your dot isn't mounted tight. A quality dot is, in my experience, every bit as accurate as iron sights.

As to acquiring a dot quickly, I know that everyone is different. I think that when it comes to my dot acquisition it is probably something that an combat pistol instructor would look at and say:

So... I need iron sights to find my dot fast. I have put tall sights on everything (pistol) that has a dot. I just picked up taller sights for my CZ P-07 because I couldn't see them through the window of the dot. They are not co-witness sights, lower 1/3 but definitely there.

But I digress. Here is why I need tall iron sights in order to speed up my dot shot. I have been an iron sights shooter since I joined the military a thousand years ago (okay, since '94). For me starting the shooting cycle like I'm bringing up a non-dot equipped pistol is the closest thing I'm going to get to second nature. And I'm used to running qual/SWAT/Combat courses in this fashion. I'm wired for old-school. To make a dot work best for me means that my draw to aiming stroke hasn't changed. Having the sights just allows me to orient the pistol faster to where eye of sauron is floating over the front iron and I just transition from there to just the dot. I have tried to explain this to several of my co-workers. They just give the that look:

I have tried to just go to the dot. It only works about half the time. The rest of the time I feel like I'm looking for a ghost. So this is how I do. I really do like my dots and prefer them on my guns. On a string of fire, once I have the dot, I can keep it. I feel that they allow for more precise aiming (for me) and faster, extended range fire. But I do spend a lot of time to ensure that they are spot on accurate (to me).

 

[MrMichaelActual]

I’m on the struggle bus folks. I only own two handguns now with optics. I’m just an old dog trying to learn new tricks.Today I took out the CC9 that came with Holosun. The dot is set at 25 yards. When practicing at 3,5,7,12,15 and 20 I’m low. I have never been in a defensive situation but from my understanding most do occur much closer than 25 yds. Are red dots really faster particularly at closer range?
When using irons alone I’m on target within 1 inch groupings.
Thoughts and feedback please.
Thanks

Are you shooting tight groups but just low? They do tell you that the dots are dialed in at the factory but if you have good groups I would tune up the dot @ 15... assuming that your mechanics are good.

 

[TurboDog910]

Are you shooting tight groups but just low? They do tell you that the dots are dialed in at the factory but if you have good groups I would tune up the dot @ 15... assuming that your mechanics are good.

Yep, groups were good, just low in closer ranges. I’ll pull it in 10-13 and keep at it.

 

[deadduck357]

Coming off iron sights there is a learning curve. Practice more.

This ^. Took me awhile to get use to them on pistols.

 

[Jsimon78]

I’m on the struggle bus folks. I only own two handguns now with optics. I’m just an old dog trying to learn new tricks.Today I took out the CC9 that came with Holosun. The dot is set at 25 yards. When practicing at 3,5,7,12,15 and 20 I’m low. I have never been in a defensive situation but from my understanding most do occur much closer than 25 yds. Are red dots really faster particularly at closer range?
When using irons alone I’m on target within 1 inch groupings.
Thoughts and feedback please.
Thanks

Practice is key. I know it’s not easy since I am trying to wrap my head around the one I have.

 

[Lo-Profile]

I’m on the struggle bus folks. I only own two handguns now with optics. I’m just an old dog trying to learn new tricks.Today I took out the CC9 that came with Holosun. The dot is set at 25 yards. When practicing at 3,5,7,12,15 and 20 I’m low. I have never been in a defensive situation but from my understanding most do occur much closer than 25 yds. Are red dots really faster particularly at closer range?
When using irons alone I’m on target within 1 inch groupings.
Thoughts and feedback please.
Thanks

I think 25y is a bit further than needed, I mean that's 75' away.

I have mine sighted in for 21' / 7y

 

[deadduck357]

I think 25y is a bit further than needed, I mean that's 75' away.

I have mine sighted in for 21' / 7y

Zero mine at 15 yds (pistol).

 

[KillerFord1977]

I think 25y is a bit further than needed, I mean that's 75' away.

I have mine sighted in for 21' / 7y

Under 25 yards, the margin of error being high or low based on a zero from 7 yards to 25 yards is minimal.
If you can hit a bull consistently at 10 yards, the perp is taking all rounds to the chest + or - a couple inches from you shooting them dead center.

If you cannot hit bulls at 7-10yards, you only expand margin of error with increased speed and duress, with likelyhood of the perp going to jail with an ankle wound like most agencies report

 

[SimonRL]

I think 25y is a bit further than needed, I mean that's 75' away.

I have mine sighted in for 21' / 7y

You know what they say, if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball.

I just spent two days on a high intensity red dot course that finished up with us doing transition drills where we shot the head box of a paper target at 7 yds, a steel C zone silhouette at 15yds and an A zone metal plate at 25yds, timed from the draw against a shooter next to you. The instructor would call out combinations of order for the targets, including putting multiple rounds on certain targets. Getting your dot on a target at 25 yds is easy. Getting your dot on that 25yd target, pulling the trigger cleanly and hitting that A Zone plate under pressure is another story entirely. I had the fastest time in the class drawing from holster on the 25yd target only and yet there were numerous times where my dot was dead center on the target and I had to take 3 or 4 shots before I hit. In the real world a perp would have been on top of me in the time I took to connect.

In the shot below the C zone silhouette is at 25 yds and the A zone was at 15. Look how small the C zone looks. Now imagine the A zone at that distance

Everyone has to decide what distance they feel is “necessary” to get an effective zero, but be aware that if you are not stretching yourself with your red dot when go time comes, things are not going to evolve as you expect. That is a guaranteed. The common quote from every shooter in the class was, “That was humbling.”

.

 

[Lo-Profile]

Under 25 yards, the margin of error being high or low based on a zero from 7 yards to 25 yards is minimal.
If you can hit a bull consistently at 10 yards, the perp is taking all rounds to the chest + or - a couple inches from you shooting them dead center.

If you cannot hit bulls at 7-10yards, you only expand margin of error with increased speed and duress, with likelyhood of the perp going to jail with an ankle wound like most agencies report

In my training I use 3x5 cards between 3-21 yards. 8 rounds all on the card to move back. Starting at 3y and moving back 3y after each successful target. Miss, start over

 

[Lo-Profile]

You know what they say, if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball.

I just spent two days on a high intensity red dot course that finished up with us doing transition drills where we shot the head box of a paper target at 7 yds, a steel C zone silhouette at 15yds and an A zone metal plate at 25yds, timed from the draw against a shooter next to you. The instructor would call out combinations of order for the targets, including putting multiple rounds on certain targets. Getting your dot on a target at 25 yds is easy. Getting your dot on that 25yd target, pulling the trigger cleanly and hitting that A Zone plate under pressure is another story entirely. I had the fastest time in the class drawing from holster on the 25yd target only and yet there were numerous times where my dot was dead center on the target and I had to take 3 or 4 shots before I hit. In the real world a perp would have been on top of me in the time I took to connect.

In the shot below the C zone silhouette is at 25 yds and the A zone was at 15. Look how small the C zone looks. Now imagine the A zone at that distance

Everyone has to decide what distance they feel is “necessary” to get an effective zero, but be aware that if you are not stretching yourself with your red dot when go time comes, things are not going to evolve as you expect. That is a guaranteed. The common quote from every shooter in the class was, “That was humbling.”

.

View attachment 80478

Sweet, most people didn't train at all .... Just rely on the magic RDS to make hits.

My targets for training are 3x5 cards, shot between 3y-21y