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The Good and Bad of Constitutional Carry

Talyn

Talyn

SAINT
Founding Member
Look at some of the constitutional carry statistics that came out along with taking a look at some of the pros and cons of constitutional carry.

www.thefirearmblog.com

Concealed Carry Corner: The Good and Bad of Constitutional Carry -

along with taking a look at some of the pros and cons of constitutional carry. Let's take a closer look at the good and bad of constitutional carry.
www.thefirearmblog.com www.thefirearmblog.com

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As far as the training issue. That doesn’t always mean they are proficient. In my semi retired life (I still work part time as a school deputy but am retired as an Agency Lead Firearms) I run LEOSA qualification. While most are fine there is a large number of folks that have had 20 plus years of firearms qualifications, the basic 40 plus hour academy training and carried everyday and I watch them forget how to work a slide or flip safeties off that Beretta they just had to have from their Military days

It’s embarrassing to watch these “trained” retirees fiddle fart around like a monkey trying to open a coconut!


Sort of why suggesting a revolver isn’t as bad of an idea as some folks make it sound!

While I am all for folks getting quality retraining it should be because they want to. Government mandated isn’t always the best AND when nobody should have to get a certificate to practice a constitutional right. Why it should be Permitless carry in all 50 states
 
Talyn said:
Look at some of the constitutional carry statistics that came out along with taking a look at some of the pros and cons of constitutional carry.

www.thefirearmblog.com

Concealed Carry Corner: The Good and Bad of Constitutional Carry -

along with taking a look at some of the pros and cons of constitutional carry. Let's take a closer look at the good and bad of constitutional carry.
www.thefirearmblog.com www.thefirearmblog.com

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I accurately predicted every pro and con in this article. It was written by a guy who is clearly parroting the same conversations we’ve all had here many times. Which is fine. They gotta write about something I guess.

My only gripe is the lack of training he and everyone else repeats over and over. So I’ll take this opportunity to once again repeat the only two salient points about that.

First. Show me statistics that find an increase in accidents or other problems that are the result of someone not obtaining a state issued carry permit. I’ll save you some time. You can’t.

Second. This entire argument is predicated on the assumption that a CCW class is actually” training”. And we all know it isn’t in the vast majority of cases. It largely familiarizes the student about firearms law, especially local firearms law. And that’s about it.

I will continue to urge anyone who decides to own or carry a gun to take some actual training classes. If you are concerned with reciprocity or if a permit has advantages you like such as bypassing a BGC or carrying in an otherwise restricted place then you should get a permit or continue renewing yours. Otherwise I feel that paying the government for permission to exercise your natural, constitutionally protected rights is counterproductive.
 
Thanks for the link, Talyn.

The author advocates for training, but like Bob said, the training in concealed carry classes is mostly about law (which is probably a good thing). The writer didn’t really define what he considers training. Also, I have said in the past I wonder how much training is enough? Is our local law enforcement who carry everyday on the job but maybe only qualify the minimum at a range adequately trained? I am opposed to any government requirement for training before one is able to have the means to protect themselves. It would be interesting to see a study about the level of training of people in self defense shootings.
 
Bassbob said:
I accurately predicted every pro and con in this article. It was written by a guy who is clearly parroting the same conversations we’ve all had here many times. Which is fine. They gotta write about something I guess.

My only gripe is the lack of training he and everyone else repeats over and over. So I’ll take this opportunity to once again repeat the only two salient points about that.

First. Show me statistics that find an increase in accidents or other problems that are the result of someone not obtaining a state issued carry permit. I’ll save you some time. You can’t.

Second. This entire argument is predicated on the assumption that a CCW class is actually” training”. And we all know it isn’t in the vast majority of cases. It largely familiarizes the student about firearms law, especially local firearms law. And that’s about it.

I will continue to urge anyone who decides to own or carry a gun to take some actual training classes. If you are concerned with reciprocity or if a permit has advantages you like such as bypassing a BGC or carrying in an otherwise restricted place then you should get a permit or continue renewing yours. Otherwise I feel that paying the government for permission to exercise your natural, constitutionally protected rights is counterproductive.
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Agree, most think your CCW class is training, it’s not, like Bob said, get some real training, I got mine when I worked at my sheriff dept, I went out with the deputies when they did there’s and trained with them, no I wasn’t a deputy, but I trained with them, they had a qualified instructor that came in every 6 months.
 
Annihilator said:
Agree, most think your CCW class is training, it’s not, like Bob said, get some real training, I got mine when I worked at my sheriff dept, I went out with the deputies when they did there’s and trained with them, no I wasn’t a deputy, but I trained with them, they had a qualified instructor that came in every 6 months.
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Respectfully the majority of Agency training is much to be desired. While a few might have some above and beyond flat range stuff most is done on huge B27 targets with unrealistic scoring zones

The best training I had was post agency with folks like Spaulding Hearne Bolke and. Rangemaster

John Hearne’s Cognitive Handgun with Tactical Anatomy should be required for every LEO in America!
 
Bassbob said:
I accurately predicted every pro and con in this article. It was written by a guy who is clearly parroting the same conversations we’ve all had here many times. Which is fine. They gotta write about something I guess.

My only gripe is the lack of training he and everyone else repeats over and over. So I’ll take this opportunity to once again repeat the only two salient points about that.

First. Show me statistics that find an increase in accidents or other problems that are the result of someone not obtaining a state issued carry permit. I’ll save you some time. You can’t.

Second. This entire argument is predicated on the assumption that a CCW class is actually” training”. And we all know it isn’t in the vast majority of cases. It largely familiarizes the student about firearms law, especially local firearms law. And that’s about it.
ANNUALLY
I will continue to urge anyone who decides to own or carry a gun to take some actual training classes. If you are concerned with reciprocity or if a permit has advantages you like such as bypassing a BGC or carrying in an otherwise restricted place then you should get a permit or continue renewing yours. Otherwise I feel that paying the government for permission to exercise your natural, constitutionally protected rights is counterproductive.
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ECS686 said:
Respectfully the majority of Agency training is much to be desired. While a few might have some above and beyond flat range stuff most is done on huge B27 targets with unrealistic scoring zones

The best training I had was post agency with folks like Spaulding Hearne Bolke and. Rangemaster

John Hearne’s Cognitive Handgun with Tactical Anatomy should be required for every LEO in America!
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LAWRENCE MASS POLICE DEPT, RETIREES MUST QUALIFY ANNUALLY TO CARRY UNDER LEOSA. SIMILAR TO FBI TRAINING COURSE.
 
ECS686 said:
Respectfully the majority of Agency training is much to be desired. While a few might have some above and beyond flat range stuff most is done on huge B27 targets with unrealistic scoring zones

The best training I had was post agency with folks like Spaulding Hearne Bolke and. Rangemaster

John Hearne’s Cognitive Handgun with Tactical Anatomy should be required for every LEO in America!
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Yea, that’s why they brought in an outside source……..
 
As a Texas LTC holder, I will continue to renew every 5 years even though Texas is now Constitutional carry. First, I enjoy buying a gun in 10-15 minutes (or less) once I decide I want it. Next, LTC is tied to my vehicle’s license plate and should I ever be pulled over the LEO will at least know prior to contact that I submitted to and passed a significant background check. Then again, I’m also smart enough to lower all my windows and turn on interior lights. Probably all moot since I’ve been pulled over twice in 50 yrs of driving.

The biggest reason I’ll continue to pay the nominal fee to renew every 5 years is that one day, the left may retake Texas and then Constitutional carry may be rescinded. LTC could too, but we had LTC options long before Constitutional carry.

I certainly support Constitutional carry since we’ve had coast to coast thug carry since forever. Seems only fair the law abiding are given a fighting chance.

As to training, at least in the LTC class spouse and I attended, there were minimum passing scores with timed rounds fired at 3, 7, 15 yards, timed reloads and retired deputy oversight that had no qualms calling out knuckleheads. To this day, I remember him stopping the course of fire and advising shooter #1 he knew damn good and well the small handgun he was shooting did not have enough recoil to point at the ceiling after every shot…or at all 😂. And folks are right, a permit doesn’t mean someone can shoot. It would be wonderful if folks would take it upon themselves to hit a range at least quarterly. Maybe that wouldn’t help accuracy under stress, but solid fundamentals are certainly a good start.

With 28 years active duty, most of that in law enforcement/security, and shooting pistols and rifles regularly since I was 18 (now 66), it certainly wasn’t challenging. I continue to visit the range every week or two and go through a couple hundred rounds+ each time. Prior to pandemic, I was actually going weekly, however I had to actually cut back as lead in blood was rising…didn’t take long to return to normal.
 
Lab Us said:
As a Texas LTC holder, I will continue to renew every 5 years even though Texas is now Constitutional carry. First, I enjoy buying a gun in 10-15 minutes (or less) once I decide I want it. Next, LTC is tied to my vehicle’s license plate and should I ever be pulled over the LEO will at least know prior to contact that I submitted to and passed a significant background check. Then again, I’m also smart enough to lower all my windows and turn on interior lights. Probably all moot since I’ve been pulled over twice in 50 yrs of driving.

The biggest reason I’ll continue to pay the nominal fee to renew every 5 years is that one day, the left may retake Texas and then Constitutional carry may be rescinded. LTC could too, but we had LTC options long before Constitutional carry.

I certainly support Constitutional carry since we’ve had coast to coast thug carry since forever. Seems only fair the law abiding are given a fighting chance.

As to training, at least in the LTC class spouse and I attended, there were minimum passing scores with timed rounds fired at 3, 7, 15 yards, timed reloads and retired deputy oversight that had no qualms calling out knuckleheads. To this day, I remember him stopping the course of fire and advising shooter #1 he knew damn good and well the small handgun he was shooting did not have enough recoil to point at the ceiling after every shot…or at all 😂. And folks are right, a permit doesn’t mean someone can shoot. It would be wonderful if folks would take it upon themselves to hit a range at least quarterly. Maybe that wouldn’t help accuracy under stress, but solid fundamentals are certainly a good start.

With 28 years active duty, most of that in law enforcement/security, and shooting pistols and rifles regularly since I was 18 (now 66), it certainly wasn’t challenging. I continue to visit the range every week or two and go through a couple hundred rounds+ each time. Prior to pandemic, I was actually going weekly, however I had to actually cut back as lead in blood was rising…didn’t take long to return to normal.
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Well, your experience/perspective certainly isn't everyone's but there's nothing wrong with it.

Most people in free states can buy a gun in 15 minutes without a CC license. NICS usually takes a few minutes for most people.


Being that you are or were LEO I understand the attraction to any cop running your plate knowing you are carrying, but I don't think most civilians necessarily share your enthusiasm for that.
 
I have been a LE firearms instructor for many years, have trained a lot, attended many instructor courses, and trained countless individuals from novice to expert. In my experience a relatively small percentage are comnitted to attaining excellence. Most will practice to just meet minimum standards and are happy to qualify. Most of the civilians I trained will probably never carry the gun. Carrying a firearm every day requires a lifestyle change in terms of fashion choices, activities, where you can go, etc., and many view it as a hassle. A responsible individual will seek training at a minimum on the law and safe gun handling. Most are not willing or able to devote the time or resources to serious training. Reckless and impulsive individuals concern me, as does the Bubba who believes he was born knowing everything about guns. The people on this forum are a small percentage of the population who are committed to developing the advanced skills needed to prevail. The sheepdogs, if you will.
 
Bassbob said:
Well, your experience/perspective certainly isn't everyone's but there's nothing wrong with it.

Most people in free states can buy a gun in 15 minutes without a CC license. NICS usually takes a few minutes for most people.


Being that you are or were LEO I understand the attraction to any cop running your plate knowing you are carrying, but I don't think most civilians necessarily share your enthusiasm for that.
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I work in law enforcement, and I don't want LEOs knowing immediately that I am carrying when I am off duty.

LEOs are human, and many are stressed/burnt out/ and even scared. I would rather them see I am calm and cool before the firearm comes up (if it does) than them come into our interaction already knowing I am carrying.
 
PAGunGuy said:
I work in law enforcement, and I don't want LEOs knowing immediately that I am carrying when I am off duty.

LEOs are human, and many are stressed/burnt out/ and even scared. I would rather them see I am calm and cool before the firearm comes up (if it does) than them come into our interaction already knowing I am carrying.
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Texas LTC = duty to notify LE you’re armed (if you are). I think it’s better not to surprise them at my window. Just my opinion, not looking for an argument. Folks need to do what makes them comfortable.
 
As it happens I have asked a sizable number of cops about this. My state has no duty to notify. Most of the cops I talk to think you are more likely to escalate tensions if you bring up being armed before or without you being asked.

Unless a cop has some reason he wants to search you or your vehicle you’re probably better off just sitting there with your hands visible, taking your ticket, thanking the officer and going on your way.
 
Bassbob said:
As it happens I have asked a sizable number of cops about this. My state has no duty to notify. Most of the cops I talk to think you are more likely to escalate tensions if you bring up being armed before or without you being asked.

Unless a cop has some reason he wants to search you or your vehicle you’re probably better off just sitting there with your hands visible, taking your ticket, thanking the officer and going on your way.
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Not an option with LTC…in Texas.

Key Legal Considerations​

  1. Unlawful Carrying of a Weapon (UCW): Under Texas Penal Code § 46.02, it is illegal to carry a weapon while committing an offense higher than a Class C misdemeanor. Examples include:
    • Driving While Intoxicated (DWI)
    • Possession of controlled substances
    • Evading arrest
    • Being a member of a criminal street gang
  2. Duty to Inform Law Enforcement:
    • LTC Holders: Must present both their driver's license and LTC when asked for identification if they have a firearm in the vehicle. This is part of your duty to inform the officer.
    • Non-LTC Holders: Not legally required to inform the officer about the firearm unless asked. However, it is generally advisable to do so to avoid misunderstandings.
 
I am 100% against duty to inform laws. Thankfully PA doesn't have them and I think Ohio did away with theirs

Thier's absolutely no good reason for it. Honestly, it's probably unconstitutional. It's anti first and second amendment.
 
"The other issue I have with permitless carry states is the general lack of training that some individuals have."

I knew that this is where he was going before reading the article.:mad: All the fluff before and after is just that,🤬.
Well Matt E I'm concerned that you don't know how to properly can vegetables so as not to give your family Botulism. So, no garden for you until your trained to MY SATISFACTION, it for the children after all. Also, no fresh vegetables so we can close the Grocery store loophole;).
Not against training or practice, however
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PAGunGuy said:
I am 100% against duty to inform laws. Thankfully PA doesn't have them and I think Ohio did away with theirs

Thier's absolutely no good reason for it. Honestly, it's probably unconstitutional. It's anti first and second amendment.
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Yes, Ohio did away with it…..
 
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