Transforming your existing qualification into an unlimited skill assessment

[PAGunGuy]

https://www.police1.com/firearms-tr...eIaNXUj-y4CGnLj2hA_aem_-6NaGlv6MGg1PwYBVAK2Gw

Qualifications are not training tools — they are almost exclusively a waste of time. Inexplicably, the test is the only requirement that many agencies enforce. Academies often regard the qualification as the benchmark of success; too frequently, test components are mistakenly treated as curriculum.

When the time comes to fight for life with a handgun, speed is unquestionably relevant. Cops are more likely to run out of time than ammunition. If time wasn’t a dominant constraint, then the gun would not be the solution! Even case law around using force specifically highlights the necessity of time as a driving factor — “tense, uncertain and rapidly evolving” is the environment in which handgun skills will be called into use.

Efficiency is difficult to reward or even establish when time is only measured as a maximal limit. If a stage or task has a 10-second limit, there is no incentive to push skill levels regarding efficiency. If a shooter gets the task done in 9.9 seconds and stacks rounds on top of each other with bullseye hits, we call them a good shooter. If someone uses only 1.9 seconds and puts their shots in a 3-inch group, they are normally told to “slow down” or “tighten that up.” If you have ever said those words (as I have), it’s OK — just don’t ever say them again after today!

 

[somorris]

I agree with the premise of the article. When prowling around on the internet reading about all the training offered and how much folks talk about it, I have often thought and sometimes asked the question “how good is good enough?” I have read quite a few reports of people who just bought themselves a handgun for self defense using it a few days later to protect themselves and/or other people.

 

[BruceMc]

Someone bought a handgun and then protected themselves with it a few days later. Murphy was napping!

 

[bc22wm]

I have often thought and sometimes asked the question “how good is good enough?”

No such thing as good enough. You got to train like seal team six is going to call any minute and ask YOU for a helping hand . Not putting down training but I strongly suspect that if it stopped being fun and the trainee couldn't brag about being given special lessons with national renowned so&so, you would see a lot less "you've got to do be capable of XYZ. But hey, it keeps people employed and off the street corner.

 

[BruceMc]

Training is like use of force. It must be objective and reasonable. If it meets the criteria, it's good from whomever.

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

That was a good read. My training has been varied. Sometimes the emphasis is on accuracy, i.e. a distance shot or head shot. Sometimes the emphasis is on speed, making "good" hits as quickly as possible. We have targets with a fuzzy high-center-chest box that are great for gaging speed vs. effective hits. There is a difference between real world situations and competitive bullseye shooting. The article does well pointing out the difference.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[ECS686]

As a former FLETC certified and current Rangemaster Advance and Indiana LE instructor I will say the biggest issue with LE quals is the time is too gracious and the scoring rings are too big.

Indiana has its own rather large box but a substitute most use is the traditional B27. Everything 8 ring and in full value 2 points per everything else 1. Problem if you hold up the 8 ring it’s wider than most of us so a full value there is an outer barely on the bad guy Nick definitely not a threat stopper.

I find value in tighter scoring rings and par times like the Bakersfield and Justin Dyals 5 yard roundup, double up and the Rangemastwr assessment in B8’s

If a shooter can get 90 or better on any of those a state course is no problem and you see in 10 rounds instead of 50 where they are at!

An 80 is passing and is no slouch for no. Instructors.

The problem with making minimum standards too minimum (like 70) is there is no challenge and troops think they are better equipped than they are.

Why most body cam shootings if it goes more than 4 rounds it becomes a mag sup where the perp if even hit is grazed in the ankle and looks like an abortion on video!

Most folks passed a minimum standard test to get a drivers license and unlike firearms drive every day yet look at the roads!!!!!

 

[PAGunGuy]

As a former FLETC certified and current Rangemaster Advance and Indiana LE instructor I will say the biggest issue with LE quals is the time is too gracious and the scoring rings are too big.

Indiana has its own rather large box but a substitute most use is the traditional B27. Everything 8 ring and in full value 2 points per everything else 1. Problem if you hold up the 8 ring it’s wider than most of us so a full value there is an outer barely on the bad guy Nick definitely not a threat stopper.

I find value in tighter scoring rings and par times like the Bakersfield and Justin Dyals 5 yard roundup, double up and the Rangemastwr assessment in B8’s

If a shooter can get 90 or better on any of those a state course is no problem and you see in 10 rounds instead of 50 where they are at!

An 80 is passing and is no slouch for no. Instructors.

The problem with making minimum standards too minimum (like 70) is there is no challenge and troops think they are better equipped than they are.

Why most body cam shootings if it goes more than 4 rounds it becomes a mag sup where the perp if even hit is grazed in the ankle and looks like an abortion on video!

Most folks passed a minimum standard test to get a drivers license and unlike firearms drive every day yet look at the roads!!!!!

We use a version of the B 27 with the bad guy pointing a gun
Are times are enough, but not overly generous
We don't necessarily score, it's just did you get enough hits.
I have never shot slow to get a perfect tight group
I shoot fast as possible to pass
Same idea as mentioned here, I needed to be able to get hits on the bad guy as quickly as possible

 

[ECS686]

We use a version of the B 27 with the bad guy pointing a gun
Are times are enough, but not overly generous
We don't necessarily score, it's just did you get enough hits.
I have never shot slow to get a perfect tight group
I shoot fast as possible to pass
Same idea as mentioned here, I needed to be able to get hits on the bad guy as quickly as possible

I’m in the camp of tight par times times and one that one should be able to get hits at a .5 split time (once on target) and no more than .75 split within 10 yards. All hits should be in the thoracic box preferably a 3X5 area but a 8 1/2x11 would be the box (Spaulding makes an excellent target of this) for full value.

Anythjng outside that they need to makeup with hits inside before the string of over as that’s what stops folks.

The reality we are in the age of no cop left behind era. Most agencies are easing up qualifications as there are less and less Military and NRA stickers in agency parking lots and PPC is all but sporadic weekend events a shell of what it once was.

That said I will say with firearms cops vs the average gun owner is probably better but cop vs gun enthusiasts that shoot regularly or are on forums like this not as good so there’s that.

 

[Bassbob]

I’m in the camp of tight par times times and one that one should be able to get hits at a .5 split time (once on target) and no more than .75 split within 10 yards. All hits should be in the thoracic box preferably a 3X5 area but a 8 1/2x11 would be the box (Spaulding makes an excellent target of this) for full value.

Anythjng outside that they need to makeup with hits inside before the string of over as that’s what stops folks.

The reality we are in the age of no cop left behind era. Most agencies are easing up qualifications as there are less and less Military and NRA stickers in agency parking lots and PPC is all but sporadic weekend events a shell of what it once was.

That said I will say with firearms cops vs the average gun owner is probably better but cop vs gun enthusiasts that shoot regularly or are on forums like this not as good so there’s that.

Not as good is an understatement believe me.

I have known cops who shoot very well on the range and in street incidents managed to dump a mag and not hit ****. So there’s that.

Being able to hit 95% alphas on a course is all good and fine. Now do it after a 300 yard sprint while 4 people are yelling and firing guns.

 

[ECS686]

Not as good is an understatement believe me.

I have known cops who shoot very well on the range and in street incidents managed to dump a mag and not hit ****. So there’s that.

Being able to hit 95% alphas on a course is all good and fine. Now do it after a 300 yard sprint while 4 people are yelling and firing guns.

I will stand by the average cop verses the average gun owner (by average gun owner I am referring to the ones that were taught to shoot squirrels and shoots maybe once a year besides zeroing a deer rifle) the average (non DEI hire) cop will perform better.

Now the ones that train/practice monthly shoot IDPA/USPA and the 30,000 professional students obviously outshoot all but the top couple percent of full time SWAT cops)

While I too have seen some dismal performance look no further than the Bakersfield with tight par times. Bakersfield/Keen county required their LEOs to shoot that every coulle weeks on notice (as they were dispatched to the rain) it’s only a 10 round course but they required an 80% to pass if you didn’t work the street.

The results were Bakersfield had an 85% hit rate bs the national average of 20%

NYPD required 2 quals a year LAPD monthly. NYPD 20% LAPD 68%

In LE you have a 10-80-10 breakdown top 10% go to their own training own time and dime above agency stuff and always look for improvement. The 80% while many shoot high scores the bulk hover around less than average many barly qualify Amd quip “good enough til next year” (and those since there are more of them are the shooting abortions we see go bad on camera) then the bottom 10% is why agencies and Unions dumb down Qualification courses.

As we have become better than we were in 1986 outside a Miami FBI or Bank of America shootout (which are exceptions to the rule but people like to fixate on them l)

Again average a LEO shoots (generally) 4 rounds or less it’s someone squared away hits the vitals and shuts down.
If it’s more than 4 rounds (again generally) it becomes a mag or several mag dumps and a non vital ankle hit and if lucky only the bad guy.

 

[Bassbob]

I will stand by the average cop verses the average gun owner (by average gun owner I am referring to the ones that were taught to shoot squirrels and shoots maybe once a year besides zeroing a deer rifle) the average (non DEI hire) cop will perform better.

Now the ones that train/practice monthly shoot IDPA/USPA and the 30,000 professional students obviously outshoot all but the top couple percent of full time SWAT cops)

While I too have seen some dismal performance look no further than the Bakersfield with tight par times. Bakersfield/Keen county required their LEOs to shoot that every coulle weeks on notice (as they were dispatched to the rain) it’s only a 10 round course but they required an 80% to pass if you didn’t work the street.

The results were Bakersfield had an 85% hit rate bs the national average of 20%

NYPD required 2 quals a year LAPD monthly. NYPD 20% LAPD 68%

In LE you have a 10-80-10 breakdown top 10% go to their own training own time and dime above agency stuff and always look for improvement. The 80% while many shoot high scores the bulk hover around less than average many barly qualify Amd quip “good enough til next year” (and those since there are more of them are the shooting abortions we see go bad on camera) then the bottom 10% is why agencies and Unions dumb down Qualification courses.

As we have become better than we were in 1986 outside a Miami FBI or Bank of America shootout (which are exceptions to the rule but people like to fixate on them l)

Again average a LEO shoots (generally) 4 rounds or less it’s someone squared away hits the vitals and shuts down.
If it’s more than 4 rounds (again generally) it becomes a mag or several mag dumps and a non vital ankle hit and if lucky only the bad guy.

Nothing I said disputes this. Except I’m not so sure the average gun owner these days doesn’t train.

 

[ECS686]

Nothing I said disputes this. Except I’m not so sure the average gun owner these days doesn’t train.

You’d be surprised. What I saw while filling in at an indoor range as a RSO when I wasn’t teaching is the once in a blue moon or only time they came in looked like a soup sandwich. All you have to do is watch their administrative skills handling loading unloading tells you then they shoot 15” groups at 5 yards confirms it.

That above scenario is quite frequently.

The folks that came in weekly are few and far between the one and some crowd and other employees had the same experience when we had the “OMG you won’t believe this” stories

Not saying I don’t have my share of cringeworthy LE range stories in fact maybe I’ll share some memes here I did LOL

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

You’d be surprised. What I saw while filling in at an indoor range as a RSO when I wasn’t teaching is the once in a blue moon or only time they came in looked like a soup sandwich. All you have to do is watch their administrative skills handling loading unloading tells you then they shoot 15” groups at 5 yards confirms it.

That above scenario is quite frequently.

The folks that came in weekly are few and far between the one and some crowd and other employees had the same experience when we had the “OMG you won’t believe this” stories

Not saying I don’t have my share of cringeworthy LE range stories in fact maybe I’ll share some memes here I did LOL

I know I left a laugh emoji but some of those memes are cringe-worthy, if not downright scary.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff