Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “Was the M1 Garand En-Bloc Clip a Terrible Idea?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/was-the-m1-garand-en-bloc-clip-a-terrible-idea/.
Was the M1 Garand En-Bloc Clip a Terrible Idea?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Steve in NH
Alpha
In boot camp (Dec 1966 at P.I.) I had an M14. one feature was the ability to reload a magazine while in the rifle with a stripper clip. This apparently a carry over from the en-bloc clip used in the M1. In ITR (Camp Geiger) we were issued
M1's. Very similar to M14, of course. So, having had experience with the en-bloc in both rifles it was familiar and very usable. In staging at Pendleton before going to RVN we had M16's. Upon arrival in DaNang at 1st MAW I was given an M14 with a selector.... M16's being in short supply at the time. I was issued many extra mags for the M14 so did not have experience the the en-bloc design in country. All this being said, the en-bloc worked for me for the time that I had the M1 at Geiger and I did not hear of any problems. It was, after all a very good design... thank you Mr Browning!
M1's. Very similar to M14, of course. So, having had experience with the en-bloc in both rifles it was familiar and very usable. In staging at Pendleton before going to RVN we had M16's. Upon arrival in DaNang at 1st MAW I was given an M14 with a selector.... M16's being in short supply at the time. I was issued many extra mags for the M14 so did not have experience the the en-bloc design in country. All this being said, the en-bloc worked for me for the time that I had the M1 at Geiger and I did not hear of any problems. It was, after all a very good design... thank you Mr Browning!
Elfego Baca
Operator
From a competitive view shooting in a DCM Garand match I favored and enjoyed shooting my springfield 1903a3.
Bemused Berserker
Elite
The US Ordinance Department has a long and storied history of quirks and fallabilities. It was US Ordinance that insisted the 1911 have a grip safety. Something John Moses Browning thought was foolish and redundant.
USOD also insisted on using up its stock of old WW 1 & 2 Propellant in the new 5.56 Cartridge for the M16. A propellant not recommended by Stoner, and caused a lot of issues with the new rifle, and probably untold deaths. Don't forget the Mark 14 Torpedo Fiasco. OD heads should have rolled over that F**k Up. Those are just a couple of examples So don't give the Ordinance Department any breaks on being myopic and stuck in ruts.
As for the M1 Garand, I'd love to own one, but cannot afford one, or its ammo. Even used, they command Top Dollar and are way outside this retiree's income.
Nice article.
USOD also insisted on using up its stock of old WW 1 & 2 Propellant in the new 5.56 Cartridge for the M16. A propellant not recommended by Stoner, and caused a lot of issues with the new rifle, and probably untold deaths. Don't forget the Mark 14 Torpedo Fiasco. OD heads should have rolled over that F**k Up. Those are just a couple of examples So don't give the Ordinance Department any breaks on being myopic and stuck in ruts.
As for the M1 Garand, I'd love to own one, but cannot afford one, or its ammo. Even used, they command Top Dollar and are way outside this retiree's income.
Nice article.
DQuigley56
Alpha
While serving in the Army from 76-83 I was able on many occasions to fire the M1 and to me at least it was more accurate then the M16 and easier to learn to fire it at the expert level. After I left the service a very good friend of mine owned a few so on most weekends we would head to our local range to shoot until our shoulders couldn't stand to take another recoil usually several hundred rounds till that happened. Then we would return the next day. Over the years I've shot thousands of rounds with the M1 as well as the M16 and to this day I'll always choose the M1 over just about any other weapon Givin the choice
While serving in the Navy 1969-1972 ... basic training only had M1 Garands ... for marching with, and on the firing line. For a soft, new recruit, it was a heavy weapon, kicked like a damn mule, and the firearms instructor, wasn't happy if each and every recruit didn't get an M1 thumb. It was the first real high powered rifle I had ever shot ... but it was a joy to shoot. Today ... if anyone around me shoots one, I smile when I hear the ping at the range. The Navy basic training also introduced me to the 1911 ... still my favorite handgun. Unfortunately, a retired 72 year old, I can't afford an M1 Garand ... so don't own one, but with the various manufacturers of 1911's ... in existence today, I have probably more than my fair share of 1911's in the lords caliber.
oldwestman
Alpha
Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “Was the M1 Garand En-Bloc Clip a Terrible Idea?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/was-the-m1-garand-en-bloc-clip-a-terrible-idea/.
oldwestman
Alpha
I took basic at FT Knox Kentucky in 1964 and we were issued M1 Ga-rand rifles. It is a fine rifle and I could shoot very well with it. But My biggest problem was that I'm left handed and sometimes the clip would come back and hit me in the fore head. When I got overseas I was issued an M14 and I fell in love with that rifle. It is lighter, easier to load and far more accurate than the M!. I qualified expert and help the men on either side of me to qualify too. I now have an M1A1 with an 8 power scope and I can dot an I at 200 yards with it and hit man sized silhouette in the head at 500 yards all day long. I really liked the increase in fire power and ease of loading as well, over the M1 !
Short timer
Alpha
Ditto I am fortunate to have 2 garands
Short timer
Alpha
In its day m1 technology was way ahead of the competition. To me it’s like comparing a 63 corvette with a 2023 corvette a timeless classic with a modern rocket. I love mine I am lucky enough to have an 06 and a 308 conversion. Both are great shooters and as much fun as cruising in a tricked out 57 Chevy. There’s just something special about shooting them. Hopefully you get the chance sooner than later.
ronc320403
Alpha
Trained with the M1 rifle in 1962 and love it. Only problem I ever had with it was a split gas operating rod. The armor could not fit one so has to fire for record single shot. Tedious to say the least. On top of that it was raining and the steam off the barrel didn't help either.Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “Was the M1 Garand En-Bloc Clip a Terrible Idea?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/was-the-m1-garand-en-bloc-clip-a-terrible-idea/.
gsteele531
Alpha
The M1 Garand's en bloc clip is superior to a removable magazine. In addition to being far more resistant to picking up dirt, water, and debris by virtue of being enclosed, the access structure of an enclosed magazine well is superior.
With a detachable magazine, the magazine must have its release pressed; then the magazine removed; then a replacement magazine must be retrieved; then the magazine must be inserted; then latched in place; and finally, the action must be closed to load the weapon. With en-bloc, the cartridge retainer self-ejects, clearing the action. The soldier may immediately insert the new, loaded en bloc, and the action may be closed. The process is less cumbersome, far faster, subject to less obstruction from fouling, and may be done with one hand in one motion.
Arguing that, for example, the M14's magazine is higher capacity is off-subject; that's a configuration choice, and one that affects the protrusion of the loaded weapon into the dirt when shooting prone. Certainly, a Garand could have been built to take two en bloc clips if a higher capacity loadout was of overwhelming importance - but it was not, and practically speaking, the only thing that made an M14 better at suppressive fire was select fire. I aver that a soldier equipped with a Garand could fire essentially the same number of rounds over a two minute period as one equipped with an M14, if restricted to semi-auto mode.
The difference in the size and power of the ammunition used is likewise off-subject. The only issue is the access structure of a one-step en bloc reload method vs. the multi-step, error-prone reload of a removable magazine, and for that specific issue, the en bloc is superior.
Finally, Garand thumb is a very effective teacher; it is easy, after the first lesson, to understand that the bridge of the palm is to be held against the op rod handle until the loaded clip has latched, and THEN released after retracting the thumb. You can even learn that from others' mistakes; I've never experienced Garand thumb. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it . . .
With a detachable magazine, the magazine must have its release pressed; then the magazine removed; then a replacement magazine must be retrieved; then the magazine must be inserted; then latched in place; and finally, the action must be closed to load the weapon. With en-bloc, the cartridge retainer self-ejects, clearing the action. The soldier may immediately insert the new, loaded en bloc, and the action may be closed. The process is less cumbersome, far faster, subject to less obstruction from fouling, and may be done with one hand in one motion.
Arguing that, for example, the M14's magazine is higher capacity is off-subject; that's a configuration choice, and one that affects the protrusion of the loaded weapon into the dirt when shooting prone. Certainly, a Garand could have been built to take two en bloc clips if a higher capacity loadout was of overwhelming importance - but it was not, and practically speaking, the only thing that made an M14 better at suppressive fire was select fire. I aver that a soldier equipped with a Garand could fire essentially the same number of rounds over a two minute period as one equipped with an M14, if restricted to semi-auto mode.
The difference in the size and power of the ammunition used is likewise off-subject. The only issue is the access structure of a one-step en bloc reload method vs. the multi-step, error-prone reload of a removable magazine, and for that specific issue, the en bloc is superior.
Finally, Garand thumb is a very effective teacher; it is easy, after the first lesson, to understand that the bridge of the palm is to be held against the op rod handle until the loaded clip has latched, and THEN released after retracting the thumb. You can even learn that from others' mistakes; I've never experienced Garand thumb. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it . . .
US Ordinance's malfeasance goes back further than those you cited. Repeating rifles were available prior to the start of the civil war. However, Ordinance felt the troops would just waste to much ammo and refused to authorize the purchase any. After the civil war, Ordinance required the troops to turn in any 'modern' weapons they had and issued muzzle loaders to fight the indian wars. Eventually Ordinance allowed single shot breach loaders still handicapping the troops fighting the Winchester armed Indians.
At the start of WWII, the navy's torpedo's were worthless, but, because admiral in charge of Navy ordinance had designed them, he refused to admit a possible flaw in his design and blamed the boat captains for not following his guidance in shooting them.
RNorwood
Alpha
I've fired the M-1 and I'd have no problem using it today. I don't mind the 8 round cap, I can put 8 rounds to good use and no magazine makes for a nice clean design. I actually like it but then I like the M-14 as well; another underrated weapon. Detractors, and there are always some - opinions are you know, like... Our guys kicked butt with the thing, it was an effective piece of hardware and there's an end to that.
Gotta disagree, I shot on the Goodfellow AF Base Rifle time for about 6 months in 1973. We, being USAF, shot M1's while the Army teams we went up against were shooting M14's. The Army troops had a distinct advantage over us. The last couple of months we couldn't get any more Match grade 30-06 ammo. So our M1's had a sleave inserted and converted to 308. My scores jumped more than 20 pts from one match to the next when we made that conversion.
I was introduced to the M1 during Basic Training at Fort Dix. NJ, in the summer of 1957. I am left-handed and left-eyed, and I was warned of dire penalties should I injure myself (Government property) while operating said rifle in a lefthanded manner. I can truthfully state that I never experienced the dreaded M1 thumb either in the Army or as a civilian shooter. However, one M1 legend does ring true...the rifle weighs 9.5 lbs., and after you've marched with it for at least one mile, the decimal point falls out.
gsteele531
Alpha
Can't tell whether or not you are faulting the .30-06 ammunition's quality compared to the 7.62x51, the quality of the M14 accuracy courtesy of the armorer's preparation vs. that of the Garand, or looking for an excuse for your ability (;-D.
I'd imagine, if you were using a sleeved chamber in a Garand, and a modified en bloc clip, so that you could fire match grade 7.62, that it was the ammunition that made the difference.
But there's no disagreement here - my argument is solely that the en bloc method of reloading a rifle is superior to the removable magazine method, for the reasons I cited. The notion of access structure is one that is well-based in everything from storage containers to computer file management. One step to get where you want to go or what you want to get is always superior in use to multiple steps to accomplish the same result. Sort of like the difference between a commercial service and a government bureaucracy, in a sense. Or a key inside an envelope inside a box inside a desk drawer instead of hanging on a hook.
It is remarkable, however, that a sleeved Garand chamber could be made to be more accurate - or accurate at all - given the precision requirement for alignment, design relief of leade area, difference in barrel pressure and actuation mechanics, etc. That's quite surprising. I'd have thought a rebarrel job would be the preferred route.
csmacmillan01
Alpha
I don't know, but a rancher I worked for back in the 70's in Montana, John Sheehy was on Iwo Jima and said he was dueling with a Jap in a cave. His clip ejected and the Jap thought he was out of ammo, so he started out of the cave, but John also had a 1911. He told me that he look on the Jap's face when he saw the pistol still sticks in his mind.