Was the M1 Garand En-Bloc Clip a Terrible Idea?

[gsteele531]

I had read somewhere that Garand originally designed the M1 with a removable magazine. After all, Browning's BAR was already in use with's it's 20 round mag's. However, Army Ordinance required him to redesign as the troops would just waste too much ammo with a 20 round mag.

I suspect that those in the OD either now work - or their progeny do - in among the government monkeys who insist that 10 round magazines are enough to counter any threat, and that anything more capable than a slingshot or a "double-barrel shotgun firing two blasts in the air" is a weapon of war, assault howitzer, or an even more absurd hallucination about weaponry that emerges from the ignorant/uninformed mind. The whole notion of putting - as the Brits did, for example with the Enfields - a magazine blockoff to convert a repeater into a single shot, so that ammunition "would not be wasted" flies in the face of what's needed to confront an enemy charge, and predates the suppressive fire tactics adopted as standard battlefield tactics much later in the game.

 

[AlanX]

Was never in the military, which was likely fortunate for all concerned. In any case, I shot National Match Course type competition for many years, first with a personally owned Garand which I I put around 12,000 rounds through, mostly hand loads, later on going to bolt action rifles Model 70 Winchester Target Rifles, and a Remington 40x Rangemaster, which while more accurate than my Winchesters, was a chore in rapid fire. Like a couple of other commentators, I shot rifles left handed, being left eye dominant, though right handed. Never had the least problem shooting 10 round rapid fire strings with the Garand. No problem shooting 10 round rapid fire strings with the Model 70 either, and I make no claim to being particularly handy. Don’t shoot much these days, to damned old. It was very enjoyable for a bunch of years.

 

[Bemused Berserker]

In its day m1 technology was way ahead of the competition. To me it’s like comparing a 63 corvette with a 2023 corvette a timeless classic with a modern rocket. I love mine I am lucky enough to have an 06 and a 308 conversion. Both are great shooters and as much fun as cruising in a tricked out 57 Chevy. There’s just something special about shooting them. Hopefully you get the chance sooner than later.

Thank you Short Timer. I have had the pleasure of shooting a couple that friends own. It is much more comfortable to shoot than a bolt action -O6. The operating system does reduce felt recoil considerably. I don't believe the gun was fatally flawed, more than the limits Ordinance demanded were an example of Ordinance's historical ineptence.
Though CMP says they sell service grade Garands starting at around $800, every time I've checked, only the higher grade $1500 guns are available, and that's a lot to pay for a used gun. Especially since it means adding another cartridge to stockpile.
In our current Bidenomany (my made up word for what the Demented A$$hole has done to our economy), major purchases are nigh impossible with my pension. I used to be able to set aside $100/month to save up for a purchase, but now I'm lucky if I've $20 to set aside, and it's only going to get worse for the foreseeable future.
I do believe General Patton was correct in naming the Garand "the greatest battle implement ever devised." US Gi's equipped with Garands were at a significant advantage in firepower compared to the German and Japanese soldiers. We'll never know for sure, but it is entirely possible that the Garand very well may have contrubuted to shortening the war.

 

[gsteele531]

US Ordinance's malfeasance goes back further than those you cited. Repeating rifles were available prior to the start of the civil war. However, Ordinance felt the troops would just waste to much ammo and refused to authorize the purchase any. After the civil war, Ordinance required the troops to turn in any 'modern' weapons they had and issued muzzle loaders to fight the indian wars. Eventually Ordinance allowed single shot breach loaders still handicapping the troops fighting the Winchester armed Indians.

At the start of WWII, the navy's torpedo's were worthless, but, because admiral in charge of Navy ordinance had designed them, he refused to admit a possible flaw in his design and blamed the boat captains for not following his guidance in shooting them.

The whole story of Naval Ordnance's screwups with the Mark 14 torpedo reads like a "if you made this a movie, no one would believe it" saga. To cut them some slack, the bits and pieces were developed during the depression, so they "cheaped out" on testing that would have revealed the problems with the contact fuse, running depth controls, and the magnetic exploder before hostilities arose. Constant infighting within the service over budget obscured the difference between an expense and an investment, which is often the difference between success and failure of an enterprise, so the pitiful excuse for testing that happened set the stage for failure after failure.

I gnash my teeth when I reflect back on what would have been a PR coup almost instantly following Pearl Harbor, when the US Asiatic submarine fleet snuck into Tokyo harbor and fired volley after volley of MK 14s at the Japanese Navy ships at berth; not a single one did a thing. They either went off prematurely or didn't fire, courtesy of a contact detonator that didn't work at the MK 14's high speed. That was in December of 1941! The effect on the Japanese - like Dolittle's raid on Tokyo, but on the pride of the Japanese navy - would have been a staggering tit for tat for the attack on Pearl, smack in the heart of the Japanese homeland. The navy suppressed the story of the abortive attack because it was such a disastrous failure, and most people - even students of the war - have never heard of it.

We test now.

 

[AlanX]

Thank you Short Timer. I have had the pleasure of shooting a couple that friends own. It is much more comfortable to shoot than a bolt action -O6. The operating system does reduce felt recoil considerably. I don't believe the gun was fatally flawed, more than the limits Ordinance demanded were an example of Ordinance's historical ineptence.
Though CMP says they sell service grade Garands starting at around $800, every time I've checked, only the higher grade $1500 guns are available, and that's a lot to pay for a used gun. Especially since it means adding another cartridge to stockpile.
In our current Bidenomany (my made up word for what the Demented A$$hole has done to our economy), major purchases are nigh impossible with my pension. I used to be able to set aside $100/month to save up for a purchase, but now I'm lucky if I've $20 to set aside, and it's only going to get worse for the foreseeable future.
I do believe General Patton was correct in naming the Garand "the greatest battle implement ever devised." US Gi's equipped with Garands were at a significant advantage in firepower compared to the German and Japanese soldiers. We'll never know for sure, but it is entirely possible that the Garand very well may have contrubuted to shortening the war.

Regarding the “comfort” is shooting the Garand. The gas operation certainly soaked up a lot of the recoil, however the rifle’s 10 pound weight and stock design helped too.

 

[Ricktr]

Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “Was the M1 Garand En-Bloc Clip a Terrible Idea?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/was-the-m1-garand-en-bloc-clip-a-terrible-idea/.

I have limited experience with the M1. I was able to purchase one through the DCM program in late 1985. I have an International Harvester with all matching parts and an LMR barrel. It's fun to shoot and amazingly accurate. My only experience with the M14 was in boot camp and ITR. At that time, the M16 was the combat rifle. Given what's available today, the M1 is heavy and I don't think I'd like to lug one around in combat, but if that's what I had, and someone was trying to kill me, I don't think I'd be all that concerned with the clip pinging out; as long as I had another one to push in and keep going.

 

[gsteele531]

Bad idea—difficult to load, requires dexterity when fine motor skills are at their worst. What do you do when you’ve fired several shots and want to top off? M14 solved it all with the large box magazine and ability to use stripper clips with the slide locked back.

I've seen this complaint registered in many places about en bloc clips, and I have to say that it is only folklore. There is nothing to stop a soldier from locking the op rod back and inserting individual .30-06 rounds back in the en block clip while it is still in the magazine well.

I think this story got started someplace - maybe discouraged as a means of topping off or some such so soldiers wouldn't clobber their thumbs - and it got legs and spread as gospel. In fact, a few years ago, I ran across a YouTube video of a guy topping off a Garand - no idea if it is still there, given that the folks who run YouTube are communist wokeweiners, but there ought to be a video of how to do it somewhere. *

I remember back in the '60's (no, I am not a rich, tall 30 year old football player like many on the Internet pretend to be; I'm OLD) when we were learning to disassemble, clean, and reassemble Garands, carbines, and 1911s in the dark, our trainer showing us how to do it while still keeping our thumbs intact.

Yes, stripper clips are faster - I use them with my Enfield Carbine just because it's a cool way to load a mag - but it's not really all that difficult without one, truth be known. Just lock the op rod back, press the clip release on the left of the receiver so it comes up a bit, hold it in place with the op rod, and fill it up like you do outside the gun. Then push it down, squash your thumb because you forgot to hold the op rod handle back with your palm bridge, and swear as the first round enters the chamber. Piece of cake . . .

* Edit: Out of curiosity, I Googled "YouTube topping off a Garand" and there are still several videos just as I describe above. Maybe some of the communists retired.

 

[Talyn]

Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “Was the M1 Garand En-Bloc Clip a Terrible Idea?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/was-the-m1-garand-en-bloc-clip-a-terrible-idea/.

Come on who comes up with these crappy titles?

The email said..."Did the M1 Garand Have a Fatal Flaw?" , then this...en-bloc clip a terrible idea?
While the article is decent (I've own/used Garands for 40 yrs) but the titles are classic "Presentism, which means judging things that happened in the past by present day standards".

There's nothing wrong with the En-Bloc clip, they're easy to load if you have any motor skills & at the time it was better than the "fixed reloadable magazines, and a zillion pre-loaded en-blocs were made for the troops.

I'll stick with Patton's opinion.

 

[OldSalt94]

For those few who might enjoy a virtual video simulation, I’ve heard that ”ping” coming from my speakers…sometimes…

 

[DingoLingo]

Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “Was the M1 Garand En-Bloc Clip a Terrible Idea?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/was-the-m1-garand-en-bloc-clip-a-terrible-idea/.

Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “Was the M1 Garand En-Bloc Clip a Terrible Idea?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/was-the-m1-garand-en-bloc-clip-a-terrible-idea/.

I remember when SA briefly offered the BM-59, and I know a SA Garand would compete with the M1-A but,,,, There is huge demand for Garand's. It's time has come and with todays precision machining and stronger steels it could be a far superior weapon when compared to the original. And while you're at it, just make it in a 308 tanker version.

 

[Recusant]

Rifle Marksmanship with the M1 Rifle : U.S. War Department : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

These are Excellent videos for those who would like to know more about rifle shooting. They are great for both the beginner and the expert who needs a...

archive.org

 

[PCBRIG]

Good article. One very minor quibble, though (that may have already been addressed elsewhere in the thread): it was possible to reload the German G43 (and, I expect G41) with stripper clips while the magazine was inserted (whether partially or completely empty), which facilitated rapid reloads. In fact, that was the recommended reloading method and mitigated the reality that German infantryment were issued only one or two 10-round box mags.

 

[PCBRIG]

The M1 Garand's en bloc clip is superior to a removable magazine. In addition to being far more resistant to picking up dirt, water, and debris by virtue of being enclosed, the access structure of an enclosed magazine well is superior.

With a detachable magazine, the magazine must have its release pressed; then the magazine removed; then a replacement magazine must be retrieved; then the magazine must be inserted; then latched in place; and finally, the action must be closed to load the weapon. With en-bloc, the cartridge retainer self-ejects, clearing the action. The soldier may immediately insert the new, loaded en bloc, and the action may be closed. The process is less cumbersome, far faster, subject to less obstruction from fouling, and may be done with one hand in one motion.

Arguing that, for example, the M14's magazine is higher capacity is off-subject; that's a configuration choice, and one that affects the protrusion of the loaded weapon into the dirt when shooting prone. Certainly, a Garand could have been built to take two en bloc clips if a higher capacity loadout was of overwhelming importance - but it was not, and practically speaking, the only thing that made an M14 better at suppressive fire was select fire. I aver that a soldier equipped with a Garand could fire essentially the same number of rounds over a two minute period as one equipped with an M14, if restricted to semi-auto mode.

The difference in the size and power of the ammunition used is likewise off-subject. The only issue is the access structure of a one-step en bloc reload method vs. the multi-step, error-prone reload of a removable magazine, and for that specific issue, the en bloc is superior.

Finally, Garand thumb is a very effective teacher; it is easy, after the first lesson, to understand that the bridge of the palm is to be held against the op rod handle until the loaded clip has latched, and THEN released after retracting the thumb. You can even learn that from others' mistakes; I've never experienced Garand thumb. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it . . .

The alleged superiority of the en bloc clip over the magazine system on the M14 is entirely your opinion. I own three M1s; fine rifle, of course. I also carried a select-fire M14 as automatic rifleman during Ranger School (1980s) and never experienced any of the supposed issues you theorize above. M14 mag changes for a trained operator are super quick, the mag never interfered with operation or accuracy, and, despite the very challenging weather/environmental conditions encountered, there was no issue with dirt, mud, snow, etc. fouling the action. It is no surprise to me that the Army retained and issued the M14 well into the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The guys liked and depended on them. Bottom line: I'd take an M14 over the M1 any day.

 

[Jon T]

One can NOT get "M1 Thumb" when loading a FULL clip of 8 rounds--PERIOD. I've got 45 years of trigger time behind the M1 rifle, left-handed at that, and have NEVER ONCE had M1 thumb. Not even close.

 

[gsteele531]

The alleged superiority of the en bloc clip over the magazine system on the M14 is entirely your opinion. I own three M1s; fine rifle, of course. I also carried a select-fire M14 as automatic rifleman during Ranger School (1980s) and never experienced any of the supposed issues you theorize above. M14 mag changes for a trained operator are super quick, the mag never interfered with operation or accuracy, and, despite the very challenging weather/environmental conditions encountered, there was no issue with dirt, mud, snow, etc. fouling the action. It is no surprise toYes me that the Army retained and issued the M14 well into the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The guys liked and depended on them. Bottom line: I'd take an M14 over the M1 any day.

Yes - it is most certainly just my opinion. Tests of the length of time that it takes to remove an empty magazine without dropping it in the dirt, stow it in a vest, then retrieve a fresh mag and attach it run from 7 to 8 seconds, whereas 4 seconds is nominal for reinsertion of an en bloc clip - the time measured from last shot to first shot with a shot timer. So there is actual data to substantiate the changeover difference. Of course, the 20 rounds of the M14 magazine mitigate that difference, to be sure.

As for fouling, that has long been cited as a removable mag problem compared with a closed mag well, but you are right that it is highly dependent on surrounding conditions. I personally like removable mags for the higher capacity and convenience, and just generally like the M14 as an evolutionary step forward from the Garand; had the M14 been available in WWII, Patton would no doubt have extolled its virtues even louder. Departure from .30-06, however, was doomed by the WW1 surplus inventory, as a number of alternate calibers - especially around 7mm - were proposed before BuOrd insisted on using it up. And now here we are at full circle, with 6.8mm "the next big thing" at enormous expense. If an 80,000 psi cartridge doesn't flame cut the daylights out of the barrels, that is.

 

[gsteele531]

From a competitive view shooting in a DCM Garand match I favored and enjoyed shooting my springfield 1903a3.

My Uncle, recently deceased, fought with the First Marines on Okinawa. He, and he said many of his fellow Marines, preferred the Springfield over the Garand. The "why" seemed to be the perception of accuracy, and perhaps fit to the shoulder. Or perhaps the straight grip (the early Springfields). It certainly wasn't lighter enough to make a difference - not like the M1 carbine was, for sure. And the carbine accounted for about 1/3 of Japanese casualties on Okinawa. I think autoloaders were viewed with some suspicion by traditionalists back in those days, as well. But the Springfield certainly - after the WWI receiver problems were resolved - was the pinnacle of bolt action rifles in the US military for many.

 

[gordie]

I have the pleasure of owning a M1 Grand which I purchased at TurnersOutdoorsman Warehouse in Chino, CA, it was in a "as is"barrel at a very low cost, I found it had a functioning problem of just firing one cartridge
.Luckily I did business with a gunsmith named Jim Groneing who worked on them ( as well as Marine shooting team rifles ), it was a gas port problem which he solved and brought this great rifle back to the way it should function.
It is a stiff competition between that rifle and my M1A Scout rifle ( which I would have prefered to carry in the RVN over my issue M14).

 

[HansGruber]

I’ll take any of my M1’s (‘44SA, ‘53H&R, ‘42WIN, ‘54IH) in a fight over my AR’s…particularly loaded with black tips.

Body armor? What body armor…

 

[Sld1959]

Terrible terrible rifle, waste of time. Look at what happened against all the superior German and Japanese designs, and we cannot forget the Italians... oh, wait...

 

[HansGruber]

Terrible terrible rifle, waste of time. Look at what happened against all the superior German and Japanese designs, and we cannot forget the Italians... oh, wait...

While I see your point…

I’m gonna take Eisenhower’s take on it.

It was the supply/logistics chain that the Allies/US could bring to the table that actually won the war.

Patton thought the M1 was the finest battle instrument;

Ike thought it was the deuce & a half truck.

Think about it…