testtest

Weapon Retention and Pucker Factor #1

HayesGreener

HayesGreener

Ronin
In the late 70's I was working as a patrol officer in a rough and tumble area in Dayton, Ohio. My duty gun was a S&W Model 27, 5", that I carried in a Safariland thumb break holster, before high retention holsters became commonplace. Speedloaders were a fairly new innovation but I carried two, and later four, on my belt. I also carried a Beretta .25 in my shirt pocket. Ballistic vests were uncommon on patrol back then.

My beat partner and I were cruising blacked out in a neighborhood where we had some burglaries reported when we came upon two 15 year old girls sitting on the ground with two 30 something guys. We were curious so we stopped to talk to them. We separated the two girls from the guys while we FI'd the guys to find outwhat was going on there. The girls were off to my right and while taking notes I felt something and discovered one of the girls had both hands on my revolver, trying to pull it out. I put all 225 pounds behind my elbow and knocked her into the ditch and next week. When she came around I asked her what in the hell she was going to do with my gun. She just shrugged. We never found out for sure what they were doing there but I always thought they were part of a burglary crew working the area.

On another occasion I went to a family disturbance where a woman reported her four teen sons were fighting. I arrived to find the one son assaulting his brothers and they were fighting back in a meelee. I went to cuff the instigator and then the other three jumped on me. We fought from the doorway down two levels of the split level stairs. My partner showed right behind me and dropped a Signal 99, officer needs help. I had two guys on my back and one of them had his hand on my gun trying to pull it. Another one had his arm around my neck. We were in a tight landing so I was able to brace my foot against one wall and pin him against the opposite wall so he could not draw the gun. I got some jabs in with my PR24, and things came under control when the cavalry arrived. My clarino holster got a deep scratch during the fight and the judge later made the primary aggressor pay me for a new one.

I have many stories of attempted gun grabs and sadly a few where the bad guy got the gun. The two here had a profound effect on me. I can tell you that your heart rate goes to 200 when it happens.

My point here is that gun grabs, and weapon retention are a real thing. If you carry a firearm, I repeat something an instructor said to me more than 50 years ago: "Remember, wherever you go, there is always at least one gun present".

My experiences, and those of others with gun grabs is one of several reasons why I am so adamantly against civilian open carry. Most civilians will not invest and train with high retention holsters. It is best to conceal it in a way that no one knows you have it.
 
HayesGreener said:
In the late 70's I was working as a patrol officer in a rough and tumble area in Dayton, Ohio. My duty gun was a S&W Model 27, 5", that I carried in a Safariland thumb break holster, before high retention holsters became commonplace. Speedloaders were a fairly new innovation but I carried two, and later four, on my belt. I also carried a Beretta .25 in my shirt pocket. Ballistic vests were uncommon on patrol back then.

My beat partner and I were cruising blacked out in a neighborhood where we had some burglaries reported when we came upon two 15 year old girls sitting on the ground with two 30 something guys. We were curious so we stopped to talk to them. We separated the two girls from the guys while we FI'd the guys to find outwhat was going on there. The girls were off to my right and while taking notes I felt something and discovered one of the girls had both hands on my revolver, trying to pull it out. I put all 225 pounds behind my elbow and knocked her into the ditch and next week. When she came around I asked her what in the hell she was going to do with my gun. She just shrugged. We never found out for sure what they were doing there but I always thought they were part of a burglary crew working the area.

On another occasion I went to a family disturbance where a woman reported her four teen sons were fighting. I arrived to find the one son assaulting his brothers and they were fighting back in a meelee. I went to cuff the instigator and then the other three jumped on me. We fought from the doorway down two levels of the split level stairs. My partner showed right behind me and dropped a Signal 99, officer needs help. I had two guys on my back and one of them had his hand on my gun trying to pull it. Another one had his arm around my neck. We were in a tight landing so I was able to brace my foot against one wall and pin him against the opposite wall so he could not draw the gun. I got some jabs in with my PR24, and things came under control when the cavalry arrived. My clarino holster got a deep scratch during the fight and the judge later made the primary aggressor pay me for a new one.

I have many stories of attempted gun grabs and sadly a few where the bad guy got the gun. The two here had a profound effect on me. I can tell you that your heart rate goes to 200 when it happens.

My point here is that gun grabs, and weapon retention are a real thing. If you carry a firearm, I repeat something an instructor said to me more than 50 years ago: "Remember, wherever you go, there is always at least one gun present".

My experiences, and those of others with gun grabs is one of several reasons why I am so adamantly against civilian open carry. Most civilians will not invest and train with high retention holsters. It is best to conceal it in a way that no one knows you have it.
Click to expand...
Couldn't agree more HG.
 
In 32 years as a LEO I only had one clear cut incident where a perp (female) tried to unholster my gun. Her man beat the blankety blank out of her so my partner and I cuffed the guy and as we were walking him out I felt a strong tug at my holster, gleaned down and saw a hand on my gun's grip so I instinctively turned and administered a reverse punch. Connected with her jaw and sent her down hard and then she was taken to the trauma bay for treatment and stitches. That's why I literally cringe when I see Officers with just a thumb snap duty holster.
 
HayesGreener said:
In the late 70's I was working as a patrol officer in a rough and tumble area in Dayton, Ohio. My duty gun was a S&W Model 27, 5", that I carried in a Safariland thumb break holster, before high retention holsters became commonplace. Speedloaders were a fairly new innovation but I carried two, and later four, on my belt. I also carried a Beretta .25 in my shirt pocket. Ballistic vests were uncommon on patrol back then.

My beat partner and I were cruising blacked out in a neighborhood where we had some burglaries reported when we came upon two 15 year old girls sitting on the ground with two 30 something guys. We were curious so we stopped to talk to them. We separated the two girls from the guys while we FI'd the guys to find outwhat was going on there. The girls were off to my right and while taking notes I felt something and discovered one of the girls had both hands on my revolver, trying to pull it out. I put all 225 pounds behind my elbow and knocked her into the ditch and next week. When she came around I asked her what in the hell she was going to do with my gun. She just shrugged. We never found out for sure what they were doing there but I always thought they were part of a burglary crew working the area.

On another occasion I went to a family disturbance where a woman reported her four teen sons were fighting. I arrived to find the one son assaulting his brothers and they were fighting back in a meelee. I went to cuff the instigator and then the other three jumped on me. We fought from the doorway down two levels of the split level stairs. My partner showed right behind me and dropped a Signal 99, officer needs help. I had two guys on my back and one of them had his hand on my gun trying to pull it. Another one had his arm around my neck. We were in a tight landing so I was able to brace my foot against one wall and pin him against the opposite wall so he could not draw the gun. I got some jabs in with my PR24, and things came under control when the cavalry arrived. My clarino holster got a deep scratch during the fight and the judge later made the primary aggressor pay me for a new one.

I have many stories of attempted gun grabs and sadly a few where the bad guy got the gun. The two here had a profound effect on me. I can tell you that your heart rate goes to 200 when it happens.

My point here is that gun grabs, and weapon retention are a real thing. If you carry a firearm, I repeat something an instructor said to me more than 50 years ago: "Remember, wherever you go, there is always at least one gun present".

My experiences, and those of others with gun grabs is one of several reasons why I am so adamantly against civilian open carry. Most civilians will not invest and train with high retention holsters. It is best to conceal it in a way that no one knows you have it.
Click to expand...
I agree sir. I'm totally against open carry not only for the retention reasons, but also how it creates issues by making people nervous when carrying concealed usually does not.

It's easier to take a weapon away from a person, especially when it's holstered and doesn't have good holster retention and the weapon carrier is distracted or doesn't have the firearm close to their body.

In FMA (Filipino Martial Arts - Escrima/Arnis/Kali) we attack the limbs. It takes a higher skill level to hit an arm that's trying to punch or grab you but we do lots of drills empty hand and with sticks and knives that improve hand and eye coordination and make it easier.

Many people when their arm is hit (bicep or triceps) will hesitate and that can be enough time to disarm them. That's why having your firearm in a holster that has retention where it's not so easy to remove from the holster, is a good idea.

It can be difficult to protect yourself from somebody trying to punch you or take you down to the ground when you have the use of both of your hands. It's even more difficult when one of your hands (or both) is on your firearm trying to keep it from being taken away and used against you.

I have carried firearms (legally) for most of my adult life. I've worked as a armed security officer, licensed bodyguard (Texas) and Reserve Sheriff's Deputy (Arkansas). I also have trained in martial arts most of my adult life (I'm 65.). Not only do I have 4th Degree Black Belt in Ed Parker Kenpo Karate but I've been training in Escrima/Silat/Kuntao since 1987.

I've taught classes on weapon retention. I've had drunks try to grab my handgun when I worked as an armed security officer in the Lower Greenville area of Dallas.

Working armed security at concerts or holidays where there were a lot of people, many of them intoxicated, taught me that the only way I wanted to open carry is if I was in uniform.

I'm retired and live in a small town and carry concealed and still practice weapon retention techniques. I carry concealed every time I go out unless I'm going to a doctor's appointment or to the VA (Veteran's Administration).

There are good holsters nowadays that make firearm retention easier than in the old days of leather holsters. Belly band holsters are also higher quality than in the old days. I prefer kydex holsters from Muddy River, Bravo Concealment, and CYA Supply. I prefer holsters that allow me to keep the firearm close to my body.

My firearm is my 3rd preference when it comes to self-defense. 1 - Verbal de-escalation, 2 - Physical and/or pepper spray/knife/walking cane. 3 - Firearm.

If you rely only on a firearm and it gets taken away or your gun hand is damaged and you haven't practiced shooting with your weak hand, it's going to suck to be you.

(I train with knives quite a bit. A knife can do a lot of damage more quickly (and can be deployed quietly and discreetly) than some people can do with a firearm. I've done demonstrations to show this.

Some of my Filipino FMA instructors used to take a rolled up newspaper or magazine (when they didn't want to pull a knife or just to show us how techniques work regardless if you have a knife or not) and use it for self-defense and it hurt a lot, especially on your arms and legs.)

A firearm is a tool. A very dangerous tool that takes constant training to be used effectively and to not be used against you.
 
[QUOTE

Some of my Filipino FMA instructors used to take a rolled up newspaper or magazine (when they didn't want to pull a knife or just to show us how techniques work regardless if you have a knife or not) and use it for self-defense and it hurt a lot, especially on your arms and legs
[/QUOTE]

And those guys can get you to stay off the furniture and stop peeing on the rug, too!😉😁
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top