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What If the M16 Rifle Never Existed?

Winchester67 said:
Interesting question. Dabbs is always a good read...he reminds me of, well, me. A professional small boy. Anyway, this is an interesting campfire question, a much needed respite from "45 vs 9mm" or "if you could only have one gun". If a fella could only have one rifle, a .308 M1A would be a solid North American choice. Anything I can afford to hunt will fall to a .308 and good bullets. But to the point of the article, I bet I would have never discovered the plinking fun that the .223 offers. Recoil does not beat up new shooters, but the .223 explodes two liter soda bottles filled with water, which is a key component to stressing the danger of firearms and the fun of reactive targets. I am glad I own an AR-15 but I am quick to admit the .308 is a far more useful round.
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looking at you user image... are those cars sitting in your garage? If so... I'm jealous. :)
 
TX_Kinz said:
Yours is an interesting postulation. Uzi invented the sub machine gun in 1954 and in 1964 Heckler & Koch (HK) launched, what I think is the ultimate CQB rifle, the MP5 which is still widely used today.
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Submachineguns were around long before 1954 .

The UZl stands out for being the first successful Second Generation SMG .

The MP-5 stands out for being the first successful Third Generation SMG .

And of course, nowadays the SMG is very niche usage , and for most roles , has been supplanted by Shorty 5.56 .
 
CCJ, yes that is my actual garage. The Cobra was my dream car as a kid. I bought a 1971 MG Midget for $275 when I was 16 and my father taught me to work on cars by completely restoring it. Good times we talk about even today. Anyway, I was car centric from then on, always trading up, restoring, and trading up. The Cobra is the result. I love it, but it is not too practical, lacking a top, windows or a heater. So the Corvette L-82 four speed entered in as the overnight road trip machine. I can put the T-Tops back in and park it at a hotel. With the Gymkhana suspension it handles way better than a big car should. It is fun, and the car everybody wanted when I was in High School. Now that I am older, 60,
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and retired, I specialize in getting things I always wanted as a young man!
 
Biggfoot44 said:
Just bring Money !

Just did quick search for Transferable MP 5 .

Factory built as MP-5, 65 - 75K

Registered Reciever guns, $55K & up

Registered Sear Guns dipping just below $50K .
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Thats for full auto.
You can snag an actual HK semi for $2700 (ish) and a Turkish clone like MKE for around $1000.
Throw in $400 for 2 NFA stamps for SBR and suppressor, couple accessories like RDS, suppressor, stock, new rails, etc and a clone all in is around the same $2700

My daughter running my MKE.
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Winchester67 said:
CCJ, yes that is my actual garage. The Cobra was my dream car as a kid. I bought a 1971 MG Midget for $275 when I was 16 and my father taught me to work on cars by completely restoring it. Good times we talk about even today. Anyway, I was car centric from then on, always trading up, restoring, and trading up. The Cobra is the result. I love it, but it is not too practical, lacking a top, windows or a heater. So the Corvette L-82 four speed entered in as the overnight road trip machine. I can put the T-Tops back in and park it at a hotel. With the Gymkhana suspension it handles way better than a big car should. It is fun, and the car everybody wanted when I was in High School. Now that I am older, 60, and retired, I specialize in getting things I always wanted as a young man!
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Sooo cool... :)
 
Winchester67 said:
Don't remind me! They were $3,500 when I was looking at them and dismissed them as too expensive. Worst of all, I could have afforded it!!!! My biggest financial blunder....well, no, getting married the first time was that. But this is a close second!
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I've got a list :

Not paying $3k for MP 5 , would have been biggest $ return .

Not paying $3K for pre war Thimpson was closer to my shooting druthers . ( Today transferable West Hurly '70s and '80s Thompsons are comparitive bargains)

In 1985 , brand new MK Arms M760 were under $1k . ( Clone of S&W M76 , which in turn were near clone of Sweedish K .)

Not paying $700 for shooter grade 1st Gen SAA

Not paying $700 for particular flavor of Tripple Lock

Not paying $2k for Harley Davidson .

Not paying less than $100K for A-1D .

Not buying Tweed Fenders .
 
Winchester67 said:
Don't remind me! They were $3,500 when I was looking at them and dismissed them as too expensive. Worst of all, I could have afforded it!!!! My biggest financial blunder....well, no, getting married the first time was that. But this is a close second!
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My sad story of trying to buy an MP5.

Early 1999 or late 1998:
A dealer near Louisville KY ran an ad in Small Arms Review with MP5 sear guns in various configurations running from $3995-4995. I got the money out of the credit union and gave them a call, talking to the lady in charge of the Class 3 part of their business. We arranged for me to drive down from Indianapolis the next afternoon and meet her at a certain time.

I drove down the next day, heading into a strong thunderstorm. My little VW GTI was a handful in that storm, making it the longest two hour drive I remember having. I was pretty wiped out by only a 100 mile drive.

I still arrived a little early and went on in. “Hi, I have a meeting with so-and-so.”
They exchanged funny looks and said she left already.
“Is she coming back?”
Not that they knew of.
Grrr, I thought.
I told them the details of the previous day’s call and the planned meeting. They understood, but could do nothing about it.

I got angrier as the seconds passed. I also got a slight impression they felt I was just another machinegun tire kicker and not serious about actually buying. I showed them the envelope of cash I had ready. This brought about a change, and the two employees scurried around trying to find a way to contact her. One called a couple of numbers, while the other talked to some people, but the result was that this lady was the only one who knew what was what with that area of the business. And she wasn’t going to be there.

I showed them!

I walked out (Not much else I could do anyway).

They could keep their $4000 MP5, by golly!
 
Biggfoot44 said:
I've got a list :

Not paying $3k for MP 5 , would have been biggest $ return .

Not paying $3K for pre war Thimpson was closer to my shooting druthers . ( Today transferable West Hurly '70s and '80s Thompsons are comparitive bargains)

In 1985 , brand new MK Arms M760 were under $1k . ( Clone of S&W M76 , which in turn were near clone of Sweedish K .)

Not paying $700 for shooter grade 1st Gen SAA

Not paying $700 for particular flavor of Tripple Lock

Not paying $2k for Harley Davidson .

Not paying less than $100K for A-1D .

Not buying Tweed Fenders .
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Did wind up with a Brown Deluxe though.
 
In 1985 I assumed command of SWAT and started modernizing. We purchased 16 MP5's with Navy trigger groups to equip the team. With some trade ins figured in, we paid about $1500 each. Those MP5'S remained in service for 30 years, long after I retired, replaced by SIG rifles. Old timers on the department told me they were still serviceable when retired. The MP5 was and in my opinion remains an ideal individual weapon for SWAT applications. I miss my MP5.
 
CTango said:
I trained with the M1, M14 and M16 (ok i'm old) and vastly preferred the M14 to the M16, which I thought was a bit flimsy, and didn't throw enough of a projectile at the bad guys. I grew up with the marksmanship/hit what you aim at mentality, where ammunition was a precious resource. Still think that. Of course I have a black rifle now, in 5.56 but might really prefer it in 308/7.62 (308 so I could use both).
M14 initial selection was complicated, probably dominated by "fight the last war" mentality including "ya gotta have a bayonet", use a 30 cal, but further complicated by the fact that with so many draftees in Vietnam, the ranks did not include many people with marksmanship and woodcraft skills. All this treated the soldiers and their rifles as disposable. And of course, in the jungle, long distance shooting was a rare thing; spray and pray. Although those tiny little 5.56 projectiles were easily deflected by foliage. They are mostly a wounding cartridge with its tumbling, which has an added benefit of weighing down the opposition to care for casualties. It may have been FMJ but it behaves like an expanding bullet in some ways.
The Germans had the STG 44 toward the end of WWII, shooting a 7.92mm Kurz cartridge a vastly superior mid to short range battle rifle to even the M1, given it's lighter ammunition and magazine feed. Kalashnikov stole the design; we should have brought it over along with the Operation Paperclip rocket scientists.
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While I largely agree with your post I do disagree with the tumbling aspect. If you are able search for anything on wound ballistics by Col. Martin Fackler, MD. The bullet doesn't tumble. If it did, we couldn't hit much down range. However, all projectiles as they lose velocity will turn backend forward. Also, the expanding bullet for the 5.56 is actually the projectile fragmenting. This effect was through the 55 grain bullet. This was why Fackler determined the 5.56 was superior to other rounds in wounding.
 
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