What If the M16 Rifle Never Existed?

[Cedric]

Here's the real discussion!

The handwriting was already on the wall since the 1940's for the rise of at least parallel use of some form of Intermeadate Cartridge . But the exact form was still in the air .

A full diameter , but smaller case , in the spirit of the 7.62x39 or 7.9x33 ? A medium bore , smaller case , somewhere between 6mm and 7mm diameter ? Or going whole hog in one swoop to .22 -ish bore ?

We know how it worked out , with USA being the 750 lb Gorilla of Military aid , and influencing NATO standardation . But the medium bore option never got full exploration , and if I had a clean sheet , that's where I'd start looking .

Yup. The standardization and ease of logistics argument won the day. We could call the ball on global marketing and supply.

 

[Smiledon#57]

I loved the M14 and the M1 carbine. Personally, I think Gen. Lemay was paid off to buy the M-16 (jam-a-matic) for the Air Force. Just my opinion.

I will take a slight disagreement with your post. To save money (cost lives,) the military did not follow with the recommendations like the chamber being chromed. But overall, once the bloody learning curve was over, it was a solid weapon.

 

[HansGruber]

I will take a slight disagreement with your post. To save money (cost lives,) the military did not follow with the recommendations like the chamber being chromed. But overall, once the bloody learning curve was over, it was a solid weapon.

Adding to those issues, the original batches of ammo used a different powder than was spec’d that burned dirty. Add that in with the rumor that it wasn’t necessary to clean the M16 when it was first fielded…a perfect disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Bassbob]

In 1985 I assumed command of SWAT and started modernizing. We purchased 16 MP5's with Navy trigger groups to equip the team. With some trade ins figured in, we paid about $1500 each. Those MP5'S remained in service for 30 years, long after I retired, replaced by SIG rifles. Old timers on the department told me they were still serviceable when retired. The MP5 was and in my opinion remains an ideal individual weapon for SWAT applications. I miss my MP5.

When they retired those weapons, what happened to them ?

 

[HayesGreener]

When they retired those weapons, what happened to them ?

They were traded to a police supplier. If I had known beforehand I probably would have tried to buy one but it was a missed opportunity.

 

[Bassbob]

They were traded to a police supplier. If I had known beforehand I probably would have tried to buy one but it was a missed opportunity.

Yeah, I’d say.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Back at the .223 / 5.56 and " Tumbling " , yes & no .

The origonal concept is to hit the Sweet Spot of twist and bullet length to be just stable enough enough In Air to be sufficiently accurate out to realistically far combat distance , but violently tumble if not fragment in Flesh .

Which is pretty much what the Origonal Origonal prototype did with 55 FMJ and 1:14 twist .

Then in testing prior to Army Wide adoption , it was discovered that the 5.56 Tracer wouldn't adequately stabilize in Air , at -20 deg F , so the twist rate was sped up to 1:12 . Still had Some of the tumbling after impact thing , but not as pronounced as the 14 twist .


And ever since was the cat & mouse evolution of bullet weight ( length ) vs twist rate .

I'm too pressed for time / lazy to look up the twist formulas and run the numbers , but in broad strokes , the 77 gr from 1:7 is attempting to be similar in post impact tumbling as the 55gr from slow twist .

 

[UC_Guy 1971]

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[Warrior9(Ret)]

How about the BM-59?

 

[Ascout]

I would say jungle warfare and weight of the ammo played a big role in the adoption of the m16

Probably the most prescient comment here. While it was adopted concurrently with the escalation, the weight of ammo alone made it desirable. Generally we would have been humping similar load totals (of different stuff), but the ammo loadout netted a higher round count with an M16. In my aerorifle unit, the SOP loadout was 600 rounds (plus 200 of linked 7.62) for riflemen. This would have been unthinkable with 7.62 as a routine load.

 

[ClemY]

What if, during the selection process that resulted in the M-14, when Armalite submitted the AR-10, they hadn’t insisted on a light weight barrel, against the advice of Gene Stoner, and the barrel of the AR-10 had not burst during sustained firing? Would the .308 AR-10 have been selected over the T-44 and T-48?