What Is the Best Caliber for Self-Defense?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Haha
Exactly what I was going to say. Just make sure you are using a good proven load in it.
Ezekiel 25:17
Operator
In my personal opinion, "...the best caliber for self-defense" is any with which you are proficient and comfortable using. Availability and effective projectile options are important too, but untold numbers of human beings have fallen to Plain Jane RN-FMJ (and basic Lead before that!).Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “What Is the Best Caliber for Self-Defense?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/most-practical-caliber-for-self-defense/.
I can't disagree with the benefits of _modern_ 9mm Luger/Parabellum, but that only applies to the newer "NATO", Carbine (PCR) and +P(+) loadings. One of the biggest game changers with 9mm Luger has been the adoption of higher-pressure loadings as the new standard. However, that comes with an increase in recoil and recovery and the necessity to ensure you're using such loadings in a _modern_ 9mm Luger firearm which is rated for +P(+). Many modern 9mm HP projectiles require the higher velocities to achieve the Penetration and Expansion which the FBI espouses. If you use those high performance projectiles in standard-pressure loadings, you have a slightly more likely to tumble FMJ projectile. If we're being honest here, the FBI reverted to the 9mm Luger not because it is more lethal, or powerful than other calibers (cartridges). The FBI reverted because it is much cheaper for them in terms of sourcing and training. The fact that they had to create a new FBI +P(+) loading to approach the Bureau's own standard 40 S&W (based on the FBI's original 10mm loading) in terms of power and performance further demonstrates how effective the 40 S&W had been over it's decades long, world-wide career as the standard LEA cartridge of choice.
Discounting the 40 S&W is simply more of a Marketing game at this point. Arms manufacturers, like Spr********, which didn't have large Police contracts chose to abandon the round early and then direct their Marketing to convince Consumers the round was obsolescent, or "Short & Weak". The truth is that the 40 S&W is a highly effective cartridge, which generates superior power with standard-pressure (and in smaller 9mm Luger sized pistols) than the vast majority of non-+P(+) 9mm Luger and +P(+) 45 ACP loadings. The very fact that Spr********'s Marketing (along with other arms Manufacturers which do not chamber the 40 S&W) has the temerity to chamber and Market the 45 ACP as a relevant powerhouse, but discounts the 40 S&W demonstrates my points about Marketing priorities creating False narratives. As there have been millions of firearms manufactured in 40 S&W, many LEA still field 40 S&W service weapons, the cartridge is still available in many different loadings and the round can be fired in 10mm Auto pistols (with properly supported chambers) I just don't see the legitimate obsolescence of the 40 S&W any time soon.
As for the 45 ACP, what's there to say that hasn't been said in American media since 1903? It's a big, heavy projectile that is quite capable of depositing all of its energy efficiently in a human sized target without the need for fancy bullet designs, or even +P(+) loadings. For an American consumer the 45 ACP is still a good choice and the very modern +P(+) loadings elevate the old pig to new levels. However, you'll pay for that in pistol size and recoil. At that point, why not carry a 10mm Auto?
The 10mm Auto, _in_its_Full_Power_loadings, is amazing and stout. It was conceived to simulate 357 Remington Magnum performance, with a deliberately larger diameter projectile, in a semi-automatic handgun. The FBI's own HRT never surrendered their 10mm Auto sidearms. However, it is critcally important to point out that _only_ the use of full power 10mm Auto ammunition can legitimately justify the use of a 10mm auto over the 40 S&W. If you're running the FBI load in 10mm Auto, or any loading that replicates (even stout) 40 S&W, you're cheating yourself out of a 7% to 10% potential performance advantage ... in a larger sized pistol. !0mm Auto ammunition is also less available, less diverse and more expensive than 40 S&W. In spite of several years of some Arms Manufactuers touting the desireability and superiority of 10mm Auto to drive sales, there is still a smaller base of circulating 10MM Auto firearms and, in my experience, many are relegated to Vault Queen, or Range Day usage.
I've owned a lot of different firearms in a lot iof different calibers. I've even depended up some of those in critical situations. I can honestly say I wouldn't want to take a bullet of any caliber because I know they can all be lethal. So, instead of pushing click-bait that declares one caliber/cartridge superior to another, it would be of more service to emphasize that you should only defensively carry something with which you are comfortable and proficient, no matter what it is. Then train regularly with it!
That is all...
Last edited:
SimonRL
Hellcat
Congratulations! You posted the longest thread in the most inane post on this forum, which instantly makes you eligible for this:In my personal opinion, "...the best caliber for self-defense" is any with which you are proficient and comfortable using. Availability and effective projectile options are important too, but untold numbers of human beings have fallen to Plain Jane RN-FMJ (and basic Lead before that!).
I can't disagree with the benefits of _modern_ 9mm Luger/Parabellum, but that only applies to the newer "NATO", Carbine (PCR) and +P(+) loadings. One of the biggest game changers with 9mm Luger has been the adoption of higher-pressure loadings as the new standard. However, that comes with an increase in recoil and recovery and the necessity to ensure you're using such loadings in a _modern_ 9mm Luger firearm which is rated for +P(+). Many modern 9mm HP projectiles require the higher velocities to achieve the Penetration and Expansion which the FBI espouses. If you use those high performance projectiles in standard-pressure loadings, you have a slightly more likely to tumble FMJ projectile. If we're being honest here, the FBI reverted to the 9mm Luger not because it is more lethal, or powerful than other calibers (cartridges). The FBI reverted because it is much cheaper for them in terms of sourcing and training. The fact that they had to create a new FBI +P(+) loading to approach the Bureau's own standard 40 S&W (based on the FBI's original 10mm loading) in terms of power and performance further demonstrates how effective the 40 S&W had been over it's decades long, world-wide career as the standard LEA cartridge of choice.
Discounting the 40 S&W is simply more of a Marketing game at this point. Arms manufacturers, like Springfield, which didn't have large Police contracts chose to abandon the round early and then direct their Marketing to convince Consumers the round was obsolete, or "Short & Weak". The truth is that the 40 S&W is a highly effective cartridge, which generates superior power with standard-pressure (and in smaller 9mm Luger sized pistols) than the vast majority of non-+P(+) 9mm Luger and 45 ACP loadings. The very fact that Springfield's Marketing (along with other arms Manufacturers which do not chamber the 40 S&W) has the temerity to chamber and Market the 45 ACP as a relevant powerhouse, but discounts the 40 S&W demonstrates my points about Marketing priorities creating False narratives. As there have been millions of firearms manufactured in 40 S&W, many LEA still field 40 S&W service weapons, the cartridge is still available in many different loadings and the round can be fired in 10mm Auto pistols (with properly supported chambers) I just don't see the legitimate obsolescence of the 40 S&W any time soon.
As for the 45 ACP, what's there to say that hasn't been said in American media since 1903? It's a big, heavy projectile that is quite capable of depositing all of its energy efficiently in a human sized target without the need for fancy bullet designs, or even +P(+) loadings. For an American consumer the 45 ACP is still a good choice and the very modern +P(+) loadings elevate the old pig to new levels. However, you'll pay for that in pistol size and recoil.
The 10mm Auto, _in_its_Full_Power_loadings, is amazing and stout. It was conceived to simulate 357 Remington Magnum performance, with a deliberately larger diameter projectile, in a semi-automatic handgun. The FBI's own HRT never surrendered their 10mm Auto sidearms. However, it is critcally important to point out that _only_ the use of full power 10mm Auto ammunition can legitimately justify the use of a 10mm auto over the 40 S&W. If you're running the FBI load in 10mm Auto, or any loading that replicates (even stout) 40 S&W, you're cheating yourself out of a 7% to 10% potential performance advantage ... in a larger sized pistol. !0mm Auto ammunition is also less available, less diverse and more expensive than 40 S&W. In spite of several years of some Arms Manufactuers touting the desireability and superiority of 10mm Auto to drive sales, there is still a smaller base of circulating 10MM Auto firearms
and, in my experience, many are relegated to Vault Queen, or Range Day usage.
I've owned a lot of different firearms in a lot iof different calibers. I've even depended up some of those in critical situations. I can honestly say I wouldn't want to take a bullet of any caliber because I know they can all be lethal. So, instead of pushing bit that declare one caliber/cartridge superior to another, it would be of more service to emphasize that you should only defensively carry something with which you are comfortable and proficient, no matter what it is then train regularly!
That is all...
Ezekiel 25:17
Operator
Once it's on the Interwebs, it's alive forever ... or until the Reply function gets disabled.
HansGruber
Ronin
The HRT DID, in fact, surrender their 1076’s for Springfield Professional widebody 1911’s in .45.In my personal opinion, "...the best caliber for self-defense" is any with which you are proficient and comfortable using. Availability and effective projectile options are important too, but untold numbers of human beings have fallen to Plain Jane RN-FMJ (and basic Lead before that!).
I can't disagree with the benefits of _modern_ 9mm Luger/Parabellum, but that only applies to the newer "NATO", Carbine (PCR) and +P(+) loadings. One of the biggest game changers with 9mm Luger has been the adoption of higher-pressure loadings as the new standard. However, that comes with an increase in recoil and recovery and the necessity to ensure you're using such loadings in a _modern_ 9mm Luger firearm which is rated for +P(+). Many modern 9mm HP projectiles require the higher velocities to achieve the Penetration and Expansion which the FBI espouses. If you use those high performance projectiles in standard-pressure loadings, you have a slightly more likely to tumble FMJ projectile. If we're being honest here, the FBI reverted to the 9mm Luger not because it is more lethal, or powerful than other calibers (cartridges). The FBI reverted because it is much cheaper for them in terms of sourcing and training. The fact that they had to create a new FBI +P(+) loading to approach the Bureau's own standard 40 S&W (based on the FBI's original 10mm loading) in terms of power and performance further demonstrates how effective the 40 S&W had been over it's decades long, world-wide career as the standard LEA cartridge of choice.
Discounting the 40 S&W is simply more of a Marketing game at this point. Arms manufacturers, like Spr********, which didn't have large Police contracts chose to abandon the round early and then direct their Marketing to convince Consumers the round was obsolescent, or "Short & Weak". The truth is that the 40 S&W is a highly effective cartridge, which generates superior power with standard-pressure (and in smaller 9mm Luger sized pistols) than the vast majority of non-+P(+) 9mm Luger and +P(+) 45 ACP loadings. The very fact that Spr********'s Marketing (along with other arms Manufacturers which do not chamber the 40 S&W) has the temerity to chamber and Market the 45 ACP as a relevant powerhouse, but discounts the 40 S&W demonstrates my points about Marketing priorities creating False narratives. As there have been millions of firearms manufactured in 40 S&W, many LEA still field 40 S&W service weapons, the cartridge is still available in many different loadings and the round can be fired in 10mm Auto pistols (with properly supported chambers) I just don't see the legitimate obsolescence of the 40 S&W any time soon.
As for the 45 ACP, what's there to say that hasn't been said in American media since 1903? It's a big, heavy projectile that is quite capable of depositing all of its energy efficiently in a human sized target without the need for fancy bullet designs, or even +P(+) loadings. For an American consumer the 45 ACP is still a good choice and the very modern +P(+) loadings elevate the old pig to new levels. However, you'll pay for that in pistol size and recoil. At that point, why not carry a 10mm Auto?
The 10mm Auto, _in_its_Full_Power_loadings, is amazing and stout. It was conceived to simulate 357 Remington Magnum performance, with a deliberately larger diameter projectile, in a semi-automatic handgun. The FBI's own HRT never surrendered their 10mm Auto sidearms. However, it is critcally important to point out that _only_ the use of full power 10mm Auto ammunition can legitimately justify the use of a 10mm auto over the 40 S&W. If you're running the FBI load in 10mm Auto, or any loading that replicates (even stout) 40 S&W, you're cheating yourself out of a 7% to 10% potential performance advantage ... in a larger sized pistol. !0mm Auto ammunition is also less available, less diverse and more expensive than 40 S&W. In spite of several years of some Arms Manufactuers touting the desireability and superiority of 10mm Auto to drive sales, there is still a smaller base of circulating 10MM Auto firearms and, in my experience, many are relegated to Vault Queen, or Range Day usage.
I've owned a lot of different firearms in a lot iof different calibers. I've even depended up some of those in critical situations. I can honestly say I wouldn't want to take a bullet of any caliber because I know they can all be lethal. So, instead of pushing click-bait that declares one caliber/cartridge superior to another, it would be of more service to emphasize that you should only defensively carry something with which you are comfortable and proficient, no matter what it is. Then train regularly with it!
That is all...
rcurtner
Professional
I recently sold my S&W Shield 4" in 40 S&W to a friend. Yes we are still friends. In my old hands the recoil was almost painful. I can't speak to performance of the round in actual shootings. Here again to each his/her own.In my personal opinion, "...the best caliber for self-defense" is any with which you are proficient and comfortable using. Availability and effective projectile options are important too, but untold numbers of human beings have fallen to Plain Jane RN-FMJ (and basic Lead before that!).
I can't disagree with the benefits of _modern_ 9mm Luger/Parabellum, but that only applies to the newer "NATO", Carbine (PCR) and +P(+) loadings. One of the biggest game changers with 9mm Luger has been the adoption of higher-pressure loadings as the new standard. However, that comes with an increase in recoil and recovery and the necessity to ensure you're using such loadings in a _modern_ 9mm Luger firearm which is rated for +P(+). Many modern 9mm HP projectiles require the higher velocities to achieve the Penetration and Expansion which the FBI espouses. If you use those high performance projectiles in standard-pressure loadings, you have a slightly more likely to tumble FMJ projectile. If we're being honest here, the FBI reverted to the 9mm Luger not because it is more lethal, or powerful than other calibers (cartridges). The FBI reverted because it is much cheaper for them in terms of sourcing and training. The fact that they had to create a new FBI +P(+) loading to approach the Bureau's own standard 40 S&W (based on the FBI's original 10mm loading) in terms of power and performance further demonstrates how effective the 40 S&W had been over it's decades long, world-wide career as the standard LEA cartridge of choice.
Discounting the 40 S&W is simply more of a Marketing game at this point. Arms manufacturers, like Spr********, which didn't have large Police contracts chose to abandon the round early and then direct their Marketing to convince Consumers the round was obsolescent, or "Short & Weak". The truth is that the 40 S&W is a highly effective cartridge, which generates superior power with standard-pressure (and in smaller 9mm Luger sized pistols) than the vast majority of non-+P(+) 9mm Luger and +P(+) 45 ACP loadings. The very fact that Spr********'s Marketing (along with other arms Manufacturers which do not chamber the 40 S&W) has the temerity to chamber and Market the 45 ACP as a relevant powerhouse, but discounts the 40 S&W demonstrates my points about Marketing priorities creating False narratives. As there have been millions of firearms manufactured in 40 S&W, many LEA still field 40 S&W service weapons, the cartridge is still available in many different loadings and the round can be fired in 10mm Auto pistols (with properly supported chambers) I just don't see the legitimate obsolescence of the 40 S&W any time soon.
As for the 45 ACP, what's there to say that hasn't been said in American media since 1903? It's a big, heavy projectile that is quite capable of depositing all of its energy efficiently in a human sized target without the need for fancy bullet designs, or even +P(+) loadings. For an American consumer the 45 ACP is still a good choice and the very modern +P(+) loadings elevate the old pig to new levels. However, you'll pay for that in pistol size and recoil. At that point, why not carry a 10mm Auto?
The 10mm Auto, _in_its_Full_Power_loadings, is amazing and stout. It was conceived to simulate 357 Remington Magnum performance, with a deliberately larger diameter projectile, in a semi-automatic handgun. The FBI's own HRT never surrendered their 10mm Auto sidearms. However, it is critcally important to point out that _only_ the use of full power 10mm Auto ammunition can legitimately justify the use of a 10mm auto over the 40 S&W. If you're running the FBI load in 10mm Auto, or any loading that replicates (even stout) 40 S&W, you're cheating yourself out of a 7% to 10% potential performance advantage ... in a larger sized pistol. !0mm Auto ammunition is also less available, less diverse and more expensive than 40 S&W. In spite of several years of some Arms Manufactuers touting the desireability and superiority of 10mm Auto to drive sales, there is still a smaller base of circulating 10MM Auto firearms and, in my experience, many are relegated to Vault Queen, or Range Day usage.
I've owned a lot of different firearms in a lot iof different calibers. I've even depended up some of those in critical situations. I can honestly say I wouldn't want to take a bullet of any caliber because I know they can all be lethal. So, instead of pushing click-bait that declares one caliber/cartridge superior to another, it would be of more service to emphasize that you should only defensively carry something with which you are comfortable and proficient, no matter what it is. Then train regularly with it!
That is all...
Ezekiel 25:17
Operator
Congratulations! You posted the most irrelevant and content free postin this topic thread, which makes you instantly eligible for this :
SimonRL
Hellcat
I see you are a quick learner.
Ezekiel 25:17
Operator
Yes, thank you (all) for the correction. They did eventually surrender their 1076s 10mm. As a special unit the HRT has wider latitude and they have been contracting small numbers of single and double stack 1911 variants for many years. They purchased around 500 Springfield HRT/Professional Models, that were essentially built by the SA custom shop for the HRT. Many of the HRT operators actually use the FBI's current Glock models as a matter of preference.
HansGruber
Ronin
34’s, mainly.
By the bye: HRT wanted, more than anything, to go back to their Novak Browning High Powers after the 1076.
Bassbob
Emissary
17s.
And while the HRT are definitely some well trained mofos, thanks in small part to Dick Marcinko and the seals as well as Delta Force, they are also the same guys responsible for Waco and Ruby Ridge, no ?
I would think we could all agree that every organization has its share of those promoted under the “Peter principle”.
From Wiki…
The Peter principle is a concept in management developed by Laurence J. Peter which observes that people in a hierarchy tend to rise to "a level of respective incompetence": employees are promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent, as skills in one job do not necessarily translate to another.
Bassbob
Emissary
The problem is that when you utilize military tactics for domestic law enforcement it’s almost a given that those involved are going to utilize that training. Operators gonna operate. Some percentage of those guys are going to be chomping at the bit for action. Next thing you know you get ROE based on allegations of firing on a civilian helicopter that not only never happened, but those who issued the ROE KNEW never happened. Then in the aftermath relevant, damning reports and paperwork are magically lost, statements of fact are recanted, steel doors with bullet holes and key forensic evidence somehow disappear from a secured scene and some dude no one ever heard of who barely had any involvement in any of it is indicted and acquitted or reprimanded and fined and the perpetrators who broke the law, violated people’s constitutional rights and snipered a woman holding a baby and a kid are free to do the same Rambo BS later at another siege where mass casualties that never should have happened, do. And some of those guys are promoted, given medals and even appointed director of the ATF.
Likely many .44mag shooters have more gun than they manage well in a fast and violent confrontation, with poor shot placement. Despite the heavy recoil of the .357, many people can score accurate hits in adverse conditions.