Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “When Your CCW Will Fail You (and How To Fix It)” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/when-your-ccw-will-fail-you-and-how-to-fix-it/.
When Your CCW Will Fail You (and How To Fix It)
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Outstanding article! Lots of gun ranges have pretty tight restrictions on firing from tactical shooting positions as outlined in the article. Once shooters have the basic gun handling and marksmanship practices down, I HIGHLY recommend participating in local IDPA matches! While technically they are considered “competitions”, that shouldn’t deter anyone from participating. Yes there are folks there for the sake of “competing”, really the only one you are competing against is yourself. The greatest part of IDPA courses of fire is that they come up with excellent scenarios that you could encounter any day out in the real world. You get great practice shooting from all kinds of positions that you could find yourself in that you might not otherwise be allowed to fire from in a normal day at the range.
yes indeed Jigo, and I would add that practicing with a non firing pistol first, has great merit. Back when I used to do those trials we not only shot into vehicles and out from inside them from a static POV but also practiced doing that while getting inside and out of them in a hurry, all timed, in the fight. Kinda miss that. We shot from on top the car, from under it and various positions around it too. Then everyone shared in the huffing and puffing of getting the car off the active range and the cleanup afterwards. Good times. You almost forget the person following you closely with those damn timers. We used tree houses, fake garages, ladders and more to add realistic obstacles.
Old Airborne Dog
Alpha
I started my law enforcement career armed with a S&W Model 10. Didn't feel inadequately armed with it at the time, and wouldn't cry too much that I was at a statistical disadvantage if I was forced to give up my 9mm FN High Power for the rest of my life and only carry that old S&W Model 10 instead. Not revolver versus semiauto not my first choice now, but I wouldn't think I couldn't defend myself with that revolver.
That said, we all know the tragic story of the legions of American police and soldiers who have died because they were armed with a pistol that jammed rather than the alternative life-saving attributes of being armed with a REVOLVER instead.
In parts of the world, there is a reality where the exceptions prove the rule. And that ought to be stated in articles like this one.
Respectively, Saying that revolvers never jam or have shooter induced malfunction is simply not accurate. I’m a revolver guy and old enough carried them on duty but let me explain. .
While rare there has been documented issues where LEOs have in actual shootings short stroked a DA Revolver and trying to fire all 6 rounds in a fight fired only 3 rounds every other chamber was fired with 3 empty cases and 3 live ones left in the gun.
I’ve seen similar ‘malfunctions” happen in action matches with wheelgun folks all but occasionally as well). While rare and any firearm really only has to get though what’s on your belt stuff can still happen.
As far as the article it was a good reminder but one thing I would add to the support/weak hand I my was the need to practice for something that we all will face. Life/age injuries such as surgeries and injuries to hands and limbs from age and workplace/home injuries.
I know several folks a few in the firearms training community that had some type of shoulder/hand surgery in either hand and have to carry weak/steing hand only.
After a surgery/injury isn’t the time to try and catch up on proficiency just like a dynamic injury in battle but more likely the cause of needing that ability!
Thanks for the link, Mike.
Reading the article reminded me of seeing folks knocked down and kicked repeatedly in mob violence situations. The videos I saw of Kyle Rittenhouse showed him lying on his back when he was firing at his assailants, I guess that is not a too uncommon firing position.
Reading the article reminded me of seeing folks knocked down and kicked repeatedly in mob violence situations. The videos I saw of Kyle Rittenhouse showed him lying on his back when he was firing at his assailants, I guess that is not a too uncommon firing position.
Rare being the optimum word … still , I’d rather have that old tried & true revolver that fit my hand than that crust Taurus that did not fit my hand and jammed (stovepiped) more than once … everybody’s an expert on this site … goodbye
Starman
Alpha
I’m not positive about the revolver thing but maybe I’d better buy one just in case.
rcurtner
Professional
I've yet to hear anyone declare they are experts on anything. There are numerous folks here that have considerable experience, knowledge and yes opinions. I started shooting revolvers over 60 years ago but no way am I an expert, don't even know for sure what an so called expert is. Many moons ago I did jam up a revolver short stroking the trigger.
Indeed. diverse opinions are healthy for polite discourse. Let's not demand someone bow to our opinions. Too many ppl out there are like an HR dept (obey, submit, comply). Whatever works for you is fine by me. Now then, back to how to jam a revolver. rcurtner lists one way. If you like magnum/super magnum revolvers then you are aware of how on occasion, you can get bullet creep, which may happen due to a stout recoil causing the bullet to move a tiny bit forward out of its crimp. bingo - the cylinder won't rotate now and you must manually tap out the round of its charge hole.
Bassbob
Emissary
Man, I was totally on your side until the last 7 words. Taurus semi autos suck. That's my opinion. I understand this guy's is great and that guy's is great, but the ones I have handled sucked. I have a Taurus revolver that's 30 plus years old that has never failed me and I have put a ludicrous amount of mostly handloaded, hot .44 mag through it. It's not in the same league quality wise as a Smith or my Rugers but still it's a damn fine revolver. I would never buy one of their SAs though.
As to the last 7 words, don't you think you're being a little dramatic brother ? ECS686 is an upstanding dude, served his country and community and is a valued asset around here for information. He has never claimed to be an expert and he has never been anything other than civil and respectful to anyone. In fact there are no ( regulars anyway) that claim to be experts, even though several of them clearly are.
It's an internet forum about guns. It's primary purpose is for people to share their opinions about guns. That's the whole draw.
rcurtner
Professional
I've experienced bullet creep when shooting very hot 44 Mag reloads. I usually cast my own gas checked bullets back in my handgun silhouette days. The bullets required a heavy roll crimp and ever now and then did have enough creep to lock up my Ruger SA's and S&W 29's cylinders. I kept a wooden dowel handy when this happened although rare.
rjwintl again respectfully not sure where the expert label came from as I never said that. In fact Dave Spaulding told me one time the problem with saying one is an expert is Ex is a has been and Spurt….well use your imagination!!
I never said revolvers are bad but like expert I don’t use the term “Never” firearms do weird things and revolvers are not immune to the laws of physics. . If you have “never” had an issue with a revolver then you have probably. It shot it enough, take. It to a match or class etc.
I have and I have myself short strokes triggers seen them get short strokes in actual incidents and been around when high primers tie up the actions, seen bullet jump tie up the action or in rare cases bullet jump enough to get in the barrel and unfortunately the guy pulled the trigger again. No serious injuries but he was very sad at his convertible revolver (in a non Ruger convertible way)
Same with semi autos I see more LEOs (as their actual shootings are documented) have a shooter induced malfunction in fights (usually when they have that superseded draw OR they have Gucci stuff hanging off their gun)
If sharing 30 some years of eye-witnessing things I have seen across the board. From someone that taught classes at GLETC, my home agency, ILEA as well as being part of actual incidents as well as many many matches being an IDPA SO and Match Director Amd go to several national level training courses a year Rangemaster, Bolke, Weems, Hearne, Spaulding (before he retired) and many many more makes you chapped and an you think I am blowing smoke you are totally free to not believe me however I would like you to articulate or share any RELEVANT experience you have.
I like revolvers and I carry them a lot and own more K frames than any other semi auto platform! in fact I am going to the East Coast revolver Roundup next weekend with Bolke, Eastridge, Dobbs and Haggard so I put my money where my comments are!!!
Again respectfully ECS686
great reply ECS - I've not met too many experts myself, well, let me share an observation on that very subject from a real expert..... it goes like this - there are two types of experts. The first is someone who knows all about a subject and has the experience to prove it. The second type, far more common, is someone who thinks they know all about a subject with no experience to prove it.
Another fine article and topics to take to heart! The perspective that the CCW will fail you is based upon obtaining the CCW and then not training to reality in a progressive manner. A false sense of security, if you will.
Years ago the good folks Street Survival ( LE based tactics training group) provided us with the concept that "survival" is based upon three concepts, knowledge of laws, skill sets and situational awareness. So in a perfect world, if we apply these, we would hopefully possess the situation awareness to avoid an attack, the ability to act legally if we are attacked and the proper skill sets to engage after we are attacked.
Adding to what Mr. Boyle has said, MOVEMENT is a critical component in survival for a CCW holder. However, the majority of training is on a static firing line with very little movement. Not good for reality. Movement of some type will likely happen. Movement allows the CCW holder to alter the "Action versus Re-action" paradigm. If properly executed, the attacker should be fighting for their life, or hopefully deciding that the robbery isn't worth it and they disengage. In a CCW CQB environment, learning the skills sets of shoving/escaping, moving, drawing, shooting is really the only way to reverse this. Moving away (fleeing) from the attacker may also further legitimize the legal defense of the CCW holder, especially when the attacker decides to re-engage or re-acquire. When moving, think about your body position, and train to stay in balance, and move to a safe direction. Don't move into a more dangerous location. This requires pre-acquired skill sets and situational awareness. If shooting, get the bullet out of the gun as quickly and accurately as possible, continue to build your shooting position. Hopefully acquiring a reference on your gun (this may be your grip, maybe the top of the slide, the backplate on the slide, a portion of the front sight, etc, on your target) to guide the bullets. Train to use them as speed AND accuracy are critical. As you engage, make an effort to notice if the threat was hit, and if it worked, now you can determine if you were hit, your family or friend hit and then assess the condition of your gun.
Training to move with a loaded firearm is essential and Mr. Boyle adds some excellent information about what to do if you fall and you must fire from unusual positions. Think about the positions you might have to draw from; these could be seated in a dinner booth, seated in a car from the ground. What if you were knocked or pushed down and had to draw from the ground? First, I recommend that you practice learning how to fall to protect yourself and your gun. Remember that the handgun weighs 2 plus pounds and inertia and loss of balance may allow for the the handgun to become dislodged. An excellent tactic that Mr. Boyle talks about is learning to shoot from the supine position. Just remember to execute a proper draw that minimizes any "muzzling" that covers friendly flesh and remember proper trigger finger discipline. I like to teach the concept of rolling your hips onto your support side while you extend you strong side leg, drawing to a modified SUL (or Soule) position as you present or retain the handgun, and then use your legs to fend off or get distance from the attacker. If presenting to shoot get both feet flat on the ground as this will raise the knees making it easier to get the muzzle past friendly flesh. It's just as important to practice your recovery in getting up into a standing and moving position. I teach my students to keep the handgun pointed at the threat, role onto your support hip and brace the upper body with the support hand, then roll your body forward. This keeps the muzzle toward the threat in the event the situation escalates again. Yes, dry gun work and training gun work is essential. Lastly, keep in mind the path of the bullet when doing live fire work outdoors, as it's easy for the bullet to find it's way over the backstop due to a severe firing angle.
Years ago the good folks Street Survival ( LE based tactics training group) provided us with the concept that "survival" is based upon three concepts, knowledge of laws, skill sets and situational awareness. So in a perfect world, if we apply these, we would hopefully possess the situation awareness to avoid an attack, the ability to act legally if we are attacked and the proper skill sets to engage after we are attacked.
Adding to what Mr. Boyle has said, MOVEMENT is a critical component in survival for a CCW holder. However, the majority of training is on a static firing line with very little movement. Not good for reality. Movement of some type will likely happen. Movement allows the CCW holder to alter the "Action versus Re-action" paradigm. If properly executed, the attacker should be fighting for their life, or hopefully deciding that the robbery isn't worth it and they disengage. In a CCW CQB environment, learning the skills sets of shoving/escaping, moving, drawing, shooting is really the only way to reverse this. Moving away (fleeing) from the attacker may also further legitimize the legal defense of the CCW holder, especially when the attacker decides to re-engage or re-acquire. When moving, think about your body position, and train to stay in balance, and move to a safe direction. Don't move into a more dangerous location. This requires pre-acquired skill sets and situational awareness. If shooting, get the bullet out of the gun as quickly and accurately as possible, continue to build your shooting position. Hopefully acquiring a reference on your gun (this may be your grip, maybe the top of the slide, the backplate on the slide, a portion of the front sight, etc, on your target) to guide the bullets. Train to use them as speed AND accuracy are critical. As you engage, make an effort to notice if the threat was hit, and if it worked, now you can determine if you were hit, your family or friend hit and then assess the condition of your gun.
Training to move with a loaded firearm is essential and Mr. Boyle adds some excellent information about what to do if you fall and you must fire from unusual positions. Think about the positions you might have to draw from; these could be seated in a dinner booth, seated in a car from the ground. What if you were knocked or pushed down and had to draw from the ground? First, I recommend that you practice learning how to fall to protect yourself and your gun. Remember that the handgun weighs 2 plus pounds and inertia and loss of balance may allow for the the handgun to become dislodged. An excellent tactic that Mr. Boyle talks about is learning to shoot from the supine position. Just remember to execute a proper draw that minimizes any "muzzling" that covers friendly flesh and remember proper trigger finger discipline. I like to teach the concept of rolling your hips onto your support side while you extend you strong side leg, drawing to a modified SUL (or Soule) position as you present or retain the handgun, and then use your legs to fend off or get distance from the attacker. If presenting to shoot get both feet flat on the ground as this will raise the knees making it easier to get the muzzle past friendly flesh. It's just as important to practice your recovery in getting up into a standing and moving position. I teach my students to keep the handgun pointed at the threat, role onto your support hip and brace the upper body with the support hand, then roll your body forward. This keeps the muzzle toward the threat in the event the situation escalates again. Yes, dry gun work and training gun work is essential. Lastly, keep in mind the path of the bullet when doing live fire work outdoors, as it's easy for the bullet to find it's way over the backstop due to a severe firing angle.