Bassbob
Emissary
What does this even mean ?
Will I Make My Gun Jam During a Gunfight?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Core
Operator
Training often can lead to issues (complacency) as does inadequate training. Quality is better than quantity.What does this even mean ?
Bassbob
Emissary
Why didn't you just say poor training can lead to complacency ? Which is a given.. And which really doesn't have anything to do with my comment. Unless you think SEALS and spec ops guys are getting poor training. Which if that's your opinion I would sure like to know what kind of training you're doing.
Core
Operator
I used to do VBSS (Boardings). I was a breecher for a while. I also led a SAT team for a while. I ended up being an attache for various special teams investigating stuff in gnarly places. I even traveled alone or with one other sidekick at times to keep a low profile. What we did is very different than daily carry as a civilian and potentially getting predated upon by criminals, the insane, and extremists. We train to use surprise, speed, and violence of action. You do not have this luxury as an armed citizen. You could never train enough to prepare for an ambush attack: most teams have a very poor survival rate once the enemy knows they are operating in the area. They trained us to be covert as much as possible, I moved constantly to avoid becoming a target. You can dry fire 10,000 times a day and do any number of shooting drills in your home. Once a month you can go to a range and apply all that muscle memory. I guess the message I'm trying to relay is: get training from someone who has actually used that training in the real world. And the focus on safety and then you can self sustain to maintain. At that point it becomes a cognitive process to ensure safety and maintaining perishable skills. I believe it's more important to visualize scenarios while training to maintain physical, mental, and arms skills/flexibility in preparation for the unknown. I was trained by Blackwater, NSW, and Fleet Training Activity. Everything I learned was from Marine Raiders, Seals, Delta, Devgru. I worked with an bunch if allied groups, commandos, grom, SAS, Sniper Platoons, and picked up some things along the way but my covert work was more invaluable to transfer to civilian threats. Focus on that cognitive process, maintain the skills, and become good at observing, and don't worry about high volume training because it's not particularly beneficial for those of us who will likely get jumped or carjacked etc.
Steverino
Elite
Wow, would like to get some instruction from you, seriously!My current instructor is very real-world oriented, and puts a lot of focus on situational awareness and threat assessment prior to making a decision to engage or disengage. That being said, he will also occasionally blind-side me or challenge me to make me feel uncomfortable and push and test my capabilities and performance. He doesn’t not want students to be in a complacent, training rut, as it were. Of course, all this is done with safety being first and foremost.
Bassbob
Emissary
All good and fine. I mean it's not like I can come up with any sort of comeback to all that other than to say, again, what you are saying is a given. At least to me. I do train with guys and take instruction from guys who use and have used that training in the real world. Including Marine raiders, Seals, regular jarheads, retired USMC instructors, current and retired LEO, etc.. Nothing in that post do I disagree with, I am curious though about your original assertion that frequency of training can lead to complacence. Under specific circumstances you could say that about anything. Just because you train with operators doesn't make you an operator and as you pointed out, for me, a civilian, to spend more than a little casual time training for scenarios like you trained for is a complete waste of my time. I mean if you want to do it for fun, it's a free-ish country, but I think most of us here are actively training for realistic situations that we might face as civilians, in my case living and working in extremely high crime, urban areas. And regardless of your training regimen or the frequency with which you train complacency and lack of focus is between you and your brain. It really has nothing to do with how often you train and everything to do with how you train and who is training you. It might also be that someone who spends close to half of their time on earth situated where it is extremely necessary to constantly be aware of what's going on around you and constantly be assessing threat likelihood, insuring escape and evade routes and planning for worst case scenarios, that complacency has moved into the realm of impossibility by the fact that it is quite possibly a matter of life and death.
For a guy who has never been military or LEO I have been shot at waaaay too many times and had co-workers ( one of whom was like a brother to me since I was 6 years old) shot to death on my job, been forced to evade and escape and frankly speaking just been dropped right in the **** far too often for complacency to even be an option. And yes it causes problems in other areas of my life. Since I don't keep my family in those places and they haven't been conditioned like I have, they ( and by they I mean mostly my wife) do not understand or necessarily appreciate my constant vigilance and refusal to allow my guard down, ever. I understand that the likelihood of most of that stuff happening where I live is slim, but you either live constantly prepared or you eventually get caught with your pants down. I hate to quote a movie, though it is a great movie, but Vito Corleone said " I spent my life trying not to be careless, women and children can be careless".
And also as you correctly stated, it is a perishable skill, hence why I train and practice often.
This
I have no quarrel with the tacticool crowd. I have plenty of ARs and plastic fantastics I shoot often but most of those drills will never be used by a civilian. Listening to some folks go on about their training regiment sometimes reminds me of a close friend I had in junior high. Always had the latest copy of Soldier of Fortune handy
. For most people, it’s just fun.If any skill is absolutely necessary, I say hand to hand is #1 on the list. Chances are if a civilian has to draw, they’ll probably be within striking distance or very close to it. Learn to be quick with your hands, be able to keep your attacker at arms length. # 2 be quick on the draw and accurate without sights. Your firearm is a last resort.
Bassbob
Emissary
This
I have no quarrel with the tacticool crowd. I have plenty of ARs and plastic fantastics I shoot often but most of those drills will never be used by a civilian. Listening to some folks go on about their training regiment sometimes reminds me of a close friend I had in junior high. Always had the latest copy of Soldier of Fortune handy
If any skill is absolutely necessary, I say hand to hand is #1 on the list. Chances are if a civilian has to draw, they’ll probably be within striking distance or very close to it. Learn to be quick with your hands, be able to keep your attacker at arms length. # 2 be quick on the draw and accurate without sights. Your firearm is a last resort.
Well, it's playing the odds. All of which are affected by about a million things, most having nothing to do with training or even firearms. Some people are in the situation they're in by choice and some are forced into whatever situation they're in. I agree some guys are in it for the "Cool" factor. Other guys want or need to be prepared for multiple eventualities. I totally agree that for me personally, hand to hand fighting is a prime skill and one I have been into all my life, long before the need to even think about carrying a firearm existed. And some basic level of martial arts, Krav Maga or even rudimentary self defense skills are helpful even for women or more meek mannered people who decide they want to carry a gun for self defense. That said for some of us training isn't just about having fun. Sure I find it enjoyable, but even if I didn't I would still feel the need to do it just based on my situation.
Bill Froelich was like a brother to me since I was 6 years old and Alex Boschert was my laborer. This was my job the day before. The only reason Bill was there that day is because my little brother died the day before and I was off dealing with his arrangements.
Names of slain Laclede Gas workers, shooter released
ST. LOUIS (AP) _St. Louis police have released the names of two utility workers who were shot to death, along with the name of the man they say shot the workers before turning the gun on himself. T…
fox2now.com
I have been shot at multiple times, been forced under trailers and into holes I just dug multiple times. I have had to think fast to avoid dangerous close up encounters regularly. I am not unique either. All of us who work or worked in north city for any length of time have had the same experience.
Yes I generally enjoy training, but it doesn't have anything to do with some desire to see action, shoot dirtbags or be "Tacticool".
Steverino
Elite
Definitely sound advice. The one thing I want to work on is shooting while flat on my back. Training to deal with a situation where an assailant shoves or knocks you down I think would be pretty real world-like.This
I have no quarrel with the tacticool crowd. I have plenty of ARs and plastic fantastics I shoot often but most of those drills will never be used by a civilian. Listening to some folks go on about their training regiment sometimes reminds me of a close friend I had in junior high. Always had the latest copy of Soldier of Fortune handy
If any skill is absolutely necessary, I say hand to hand is #1 on the list. Chances are if a civilian has to draw, they’ll probably be within striking distance or very close to it. Learn to be quick with your hands, be able to keep your attacker at arms length. # 2 be quick on the draw and accurate without sights. Your firearm is a last resort.
HayesGreener
Ronin
I have been an LE firearms instructor for more than 50 years and was a SWAT commander for many years. It's mostly marksmanship that counts. Sadly many folks are not proficient with the guns they carry or use for home defense, and that includes a number of armed professionals. Being training oriented, I would like for armed individuals to have lots of tactical and gun skills. You have to know your guns and gear and how to operate them. But, when it comes down to it, Speed, Power, and ACCURACY are the determining factors in a fight. There is no substitute for basic marksmanship. Walk before you run. Learn to hit the dang target quickly with sufficient power to get the job done. Focus on marksmanship first, the right caliber gun will take care of the power, and speed will come with practice. Once you can do that consistently, you can go buy the sunglasses and we can start talking about tacticool stuff.
KillerFord1977
SAINT
Bassbob
Emissary
Absolutely.
And that comment wasn't meant to include everyone. For most people, that level of training isn't necessary. According to Pew Research, 46% of gun owners live in rural areas, 28% live in suburbia and only 19% live in urban areas. The rest are unknown. If we subtract out the the individual that might need those skills (i.e. law enforcement, military, armed security) and folks that will never venture into those areas from that 19%, that percentage becomes very small.Well, it's playing the odds. All of which are affected by about a million things, most having nothing to do with training or even firearms. Some people are in the situation they're in by choice and some are forced into whatever situation they're in. I agree some guys are in it for the "Cool" factor. Other guys want or need to be prepared for multiple eventualities. I totally agree that for me personally, hand to hand fighting is a prime skill and one I have been into all my life, long before the need to even think about carrying a firearm existed. And some basic level of martial arts, Krav Maga or even rudimentary self defense skills are helpful even for women or more meek mannered people who decide they want to carry a gun for self defense. That said for some of us training isn't just about having fun. Sure I find it enjoyable, but even if I didn't I would still feel the need to do it just based on my situation.
Bill Froelich was like a brother to me since I was 6 years old and Alex Boschert was my laborer. This was my job the day before. The only reason Bill was there that day is because my little brother died the day before and I was off dealing with his arrangements.
Names of slain Laclede Gas workers, shooter released
ST. LOUIS (AP) _St. Louis police have released the names of two utility workers who were shot to death, along with the name of the man they say shot the workers before turning the gun on himself. T…
I have been shot at multiple times, been forced under trailers and into holes I just dug multiple times. I have had to think fast to avoid dangerous close up encounters regularly. I am not unique either. All of us who work or worked in north city for any length of time have had the same experience.
Yes I generally enjoy training, but it doesn't have anything to do with some desire to see action, shoot dirtbags or be "Tacticool".
Bassbob
Emissary
That’s assuming people in suburban or rural areas never get carjacked or robbed or need to defend themselves. Meth. Produced and or distributed primarily in rural areas.
Just a little caveat, I’m not really disagreeing with you that most people will never have need of that sort of training. But again, those are odds and statistics. Anyone, anywhere at anytime “ Could” be victimized. Most people in those more rural areas are pretty heavily armed. Knowing how and when to use those arms isn’t a bad thing.
I touched on these in my original post. You need to be within striking distance to rob or carjack someone on the street. As far as meth heads are concerned, we have one of the most infested areas around here and it’s still very rare outside of urban areas to have to shoot a meth head outside of a police shooting. A lot of those cooking it end up blowing themselves up or shooting each other. It primarily gets trafficked in from other areas and distributed around here.
What I will give you is that mass shooter incidents are becoming more prevalent in more rural areas. The volume of suicidal people who want to take as many people with them as possible has increased over the years. I guess the time outs and giving everyone a trophy experiment didn’t work, hey? Pretty sure the indoctrinating our children in whole transgender movement it going to make it even worse.
I do expect that to continue. As soon as Republicans take back our government, I expect riots to fire back up too.
Last edited:
Bassbob
Emissary
The meth these days is very cheap and coming from Mexico. Almost none of these guys are cooking it themselves these days around here. And the stuff from Mexico is being produced in a giant, city sized plant alongside Fentanyl. And the meth is much different than the crank we all know and loathe. My neighbor across the street in the 2 months before he finally died was convinced there were black guys hiding in his walls and that his ex girlfriend, a junkie and a thief, had her arms and legs removed and was living in between his mattress and box springs, which by this point were on the floor with the rest of the living room on top of it. I read stories about ex marines in California having the same hallucinations after becoming addicted to the stuff.
Anyway, sorry for the sidebar, I'm actually on my way out the door for work, but when I get the chance I'll try to find links to some of the local stories of D-baggery that's going on in the rural area around me.
Anyway, sorry for the sidebar, I'm actually on my way out the door for work, but when I get the chance I'll try to find links to some of the local stories of D-baggery that's going on in the rural area around me.
Keystone19250
SAINT
very well said. I am definitely NOT tactical cool and have come to detest the broad term tactical is being used, when someone markets the tactical toaster I swear I’ll lose my mind. 
That being said I also was never military or a LEO and started collecting firearms and enjoying the shooting sports very late in life compared to many on this forum that being said I’m a very focused individual and when I put my mind to something I’m very focused and eyes wide open. I train when I can and how I can based on the limitations on where I have the ability to train. Am I perfect? No way but I do have a fairly high sense of situational awareness and that and my training saved my butt a few months back.The bottom line is train and practice to hone your skills to your every day situations and go home everyday.
Heroin is steadily replacing meth as the drug of choice these days. At least in these parts. I know a few people that have been picked up for it in the last few months. Sad to see. Wasn't long ago it was bath salts and fentanyl. I grew up in the 80s and 90s. back then, I didn't know anyone who didn't know someone on coke or meth. That was pretty true all the way through the 2000s.
I have 3 young boys, its my job to know what's going on around them. I am just thankful flakka never came here.
Bassbob
Emissary
Around here there is no heroin. All those people are doing Fentanyl.